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  • FIRST POST
    • Kiddo79
    • By Kiddo79 11th Sep 16, 8:59 AM
    • 16Posts
    • 13Thanks
    Kiddo79
    Premier Park LTD PCN
    • #1
    • 11th Sep 16, 8:59 AM
    Premier Park LTD PCN 11th Sep 16 at 8:59 AM
    Hello all,

    I am a long time reader of MSE forums but this is my first post since I was most unpleasantly surprised when a Premier Park LTD PCN letter came through my door yesterday. I would like some clarification on what to do please.

    I still have the car parking ticket stating that the ticket at was purchased 12.25 even though the letter shows a time stamped picture of the car entering the car park at 12.20. The car exited the car park at 14.36 according to the second picture. An overstay of 11 minutes according to the ticket or 16 minutes according to the pictures. I am of course willing to pay for the time overstayed which amounts to a few pence but am unwilling to pay the excessive £50 that they are demanding or £85 if the £50 is not paid in 14 days from the 6th September 2016.

    Please can someone explain what procedure I need to go through to appeal this decision?

    Many thanks in advance!
Page 1
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 11th Sep 16, 9:33 AM
    • 10,960 Posts
    • 16,354 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #2
    • 11th Sep 16, 9:33 AM
    • #2
    • 11th Sep 16, 9:33 AM
    You've come to the right place for help in fighting this.

    Please read the newbies FAQ sticky, near the top of the forum thread list, one page back from here. Posts #1 and #2 (for acronym descriptions) are all you need at this stage. You will need to use the blue text appeal and send that in (no amendments at all) to the PPC as per their instructions on the letter they sent to you. Make sure you add your name and address.

    The purpose of the initial appeal (whose outcome is a guaranteed rejection) is to elicit a POPLA code where your appeal there can be won - with some research here, and our help in making sure you cover everything.

    One of the main points you will be focusing on is 'grace periods', so please familiarise yourself with the grace periods from the Code of Practice of the PPC's Association - the BPA. Your period of parking would appear to fall within the parameters of the grace periods, so this can be won at POPLA. Here's the link to their CoP - do have a read of it.

    http://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS_Code_of_Practice_October_2015_update_V6..pdf

    HTH
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 11th Sep 16, 9:46 AM
    • 12,399 Posts
    • 14,780 Thanks
    Redx
    • #3
    • 11th Sep 16, 9:46 AM
    • #3
    • 11th Sep 16, 9:46 AM
    as above , their parking cameras recorded time on site , not parking time , you correctly paid for parking time as part of your contract

    the "overstay" is covered in the BPA CoP , clause #13 , both BEFORE and AFTER the paid for parking time

    assume up to 10 minutes to enter , park , read the signs , buy a parking ticket (glad you still have it , many people stupidly throw them away and lose vital evidence)

    then you have OVER 10 minutes to leave

    combined you had up to about 20 minutes to do what needed to be done , paying for the time the vehicle was actually parked

    this will be one of several appeal points at popla (do not expect them to cancel, these companies rarely cancel as there is no profit in it)

    a complaint should also be made to the BPA , citing a breach of clause #13 of the BPA CoP and providing copies of the ticket and a copy of the pcn as well

    these companies need to adjust their computers to take account of this , by making it issue tickets after say 20 minutes overstay, or 30 minutes overstay , not 16 minutes or less like in your case

    when you get your popla code, draft a popla appeal based on clause #13 as point 1)

    then on the following points too

    no landowner contract
    poor or inadequate signage that fails the BPA CoP
    any NTK failures
    ant POFA2012 failures
    no driver identified

    etc etc

    at no point do you reveal who was driving , this is a keeper based appeal , so assume I was driving (so you dont make mistakes)
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Elysander
    • By Elysander 11th Sep 16, 11:05 AM
    • 42 Posts
    • 96 Thanks
    Elysander
    • #4
    • 11th Sep 16, 11:05 AM
    • #4
    • 11th Sep 16, 11:05 AM
    Does your pcn state that 'If within 28 days we have not received full payment or driver details, under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, we have the right, subject to the requirements of the Act, to recover the parking charge amount that remains unpaid from the keeper of the vehicle'? Premier Park have lost several Popla cases for including this statement as it does not comply with the regulations laid out in Pofa, and therefore a keeper cannot be held liable.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Sep 16, 3:06 PM
    • 40,372 Posts
    • 52,247 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 11th Sep 16, 3:06 PM
    • #5
    • 11th Sep 16, 3:06 PM
    Does your pcn state that 'If within 28 days we have not received full payment or driver details, under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, we have the right, subject to the requirements of the Act, to recover the parking charge amount that remains unpaid from the keeper of the vehicle'? Premier Park have lost several Popla cases for including this statement as it does not comply with the regulations laid out in Pofa, and therefore a keeper cannot be held liable.
    Originally posted by Elysander
    Quite right. We are winning all POPLA cases v PP on this basis, as long as the victims do not appeal in a weak way, implying or admitting who was driving.

    The OP just needs to search the forum for 'POPLA Premier' to see a worked example of a decent POPLA appeal from recent weeks v PP. In the meantime he/she just needs to submit the usual blue writing appeal from the NEWBIES thread, online, as keeper (NOT DRIVER).
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Kiddo79
    • By Kiddo79 12th Sep 16, 8:46 AM
    • 16 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Kiddo79
    • #6
    • 12th Sep 16, 8:46 AM
    • #6
    • 12th Sep 16, 8:46 AM
    Thanks for the information and your help in this matter! Just to be 100% sure is this the letter I should email to them?(including my name and address) If so I will get on and send it and expect their rejection letter in due course. Should I also attach the ticket I obtained from the car park as evidence?

    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No. ....................

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car and I will complain to the landowner about the matter if it is not cancelled.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers before they park.

    Further, I understand you do not own the car park and you have given me no information about your policy with the landowner or on site businesses, to cancel such a charge. So please supply that policy as required under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013. I believe the driver may well be eligible for cancellation and you have omitted clear information about the process for complaints including a geographical address of the landowner.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.
    Last edited by Kiddo79; 12-09-2016 at 4:12 PM.
    • Kiddo79
    • By Kiddo79 12th Sep 16, 8:48 AM
    • 16 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Kiddo79
    • #7
    • 12th Sep 16, 8:48 AM
    • #7
    • 12th Sep 16, 8:48 AM
    Yes, It says,
    "If within 29 days we have not received full payment or driver details, under section 4 of the protection of freedoms act 2012, we have the right, subject to requirements of the act, to recover the parking charge amount that remains unpaid from the keeper of the vehicle"
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Sep 16, 4:43 PM
    • 40,372 Posts
    • 52,247 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 12th Sep 16, 4:43 PM
    • #8
    • 12th Sep 16, 4:43 PM
    Yes, It says,
    "If within 29 days we have not received full payment or driver details, under section 4 of the protection of freedoms act 2012, we have the right, subject to requirements of the act, to recover the parking charge amount that remains unpaid from the keeper of the vehicle"
    Originally posted by Kiddo79
    Good, that misstates the 29 days and the words 'driver details' are too vague.

    Submit the appeal you have quote ONLINE if PP still allow that method of appeal, NOT by snail mail letter, not even recorded delivery, nope.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Kiddo79
    • By Kiddo79 12th Sep 16, 7:57 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Kiddo79
    • #9
    • 12th Sep 16, 7:57 PM
    • #9
    • 12th Sep 16, 7:57 PM
    Good, that misstates the 29 days and the words 'driver details' are too vague.

    Submit the appeal you have quote ONLINE if PP still allow that method of appeal, NOT by snail mail letter, not even recorded delivery, nope.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad

    It was a online form. I have submitted it as per the blue letter on the newbies page and unchanged. They have said they will respond within 14 days. I will check back with you all when I get a response.

    Many thanks again for everyone's help thus far.
    • Kiddo79
    • By Kiddo79 14th Sep 16, 5:19 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Kiddo79
    I've had a reply...
    Hello all,

    They have replied!

    "Dear me,

    Re: Parking Charge Notice xxxxxx

    We write to acknowledge receipt of your recent online appeal, on behalf of the driver, appealing against the issuing of a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) to the vehicle.

    We note your comments and must refer you to the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012, Schedule 4 - Recovery of unpaid Parking Charges. This is available to view online at:
    (legislation site)

    We must therefore request that the details of the driver of the vehicle at the time of the contravention are supplied; this must include their full name and serviceable UK postal address. If you are unwilling or unable to provide these details the registered keeper of this vehicle will remain liable for this PCN. This information should be provided by 28th September 2016.

    If we do not receive this information by the date given, the registered keeper of the vehicle at the date of event will be held liable.

    If you would like to view our photographic evidence, please visit (blah blah blah)

    Please respond by return or by filling in the Transfer of Liability form on the reverse of the PCN and posting it to Premier Park, PO Box 624, Exeter, EX1 9JG.

    Yours Sincerely,"

    Please can someone advise what I do next? There is no POPLA code I noticed...
    • Castle
    • By Castle 14th Sep 16, 5:39 PM
    • 1,060 Posts
    • 1,315 Thanks
    Castle
    Please can someone advise what I do next? There is no POPLA code I noticed...
    Originally posted by Kiddo79
    You do nothing and within 35 days a POPLA code should arrive
    • Edna Basher
    • By Edna Basher 14th Sep 16, 6:17 PM
    • 458 Posts
    • 1,174 Thanks
    Edna Basher
    Check out homaho's thread here:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5489111

    This sets out the various steps in dealing with Premier Park (including a warning about the template letter they've just sent you in an attempt to trick you into revealing who was driving).

    homaho has now updated this thread to include the final step in the process ........ of Premier Park throwing in the towel
    • Kiddo79
    • By Kiddo79 15th Sep 16, 12:09 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Kiddo79
    Thanks Edna Basher, thanks Castle. I will do nothing and wait for the POPLA code to arrive. Speak to you again in around 35 days
    • Kiddo79
    • By Kiddo79 12th Oct 16, 7:49 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Kiddo79
    Appeal rejected
    Hello all, I have now received this email...

    Dear me,

    Re: Parking Charge Notice 1111111

    We write to acknowledge receipt of your recent online appeal against the issuing of a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) to your vehicle for a breach of the advertised terms and conditions.

    We have considered your comments, and after examining all the evidence relating to the issuing of this PCN, we are satisfied that on this occasion the charge was issued correctly and must advise that your appeal has been denied.

    You have now reached the end of our internal appeals procedure.

    If you would like to view our photographic evidence, please visit our website

    You now have three options;

    1. Pay the Parking Charge Notice at the 14 day reduced amount of £60.00 by 26th October 2016. Please note that after this time the PCN will revert to the original £100.00 charge. Payment can be made online at PCNPayments URL or you may send a cheque made payable to Premier Park Ltd.

    2. Make an appeal to POPLA - The Independent Appeals Service, by completing the form which can be found at POPLA URL or write to POPLA - PO BOX 1270, Warrington – WA4 9RL. You will require this unique POPLA verification code 11111111. If you wish to appeal to POPLA, you will lose the right to pay the charge at the discounted rate of £60.00 and should POPLA’s decision not be found in your favour, you will be required to pay the full amount of £100.00. Your appeal to POPLA must be submitted within 28 days from the date of this email. For more information regarding making an appeal to POPLA, please visit POPLA URL.

    By law we are also required to inform you that Ombudsman Services provides an alternative dispute resolution service that would be competent to deal with your appeal. However, we have not chosen to participate in their alternative dispute resolution service. As such, should you wish to appeal then you must do so to POPLA, as explained above.

    3. If you choose to take no action, we will seek to recover the monies owed to us via our Debt Recovery Service and this may result in proceeding with legal action against you or the Registered Keeper of the vehicle. Please note we will seek to recover all unpaid charges through the use of the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012, Schedule 4 – Collection of Unpaid Parking Charges.

    So they have given me a POPLA code. What's the next step please?

    Thanks in advance
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Oct 16, 7:59 PM
    • 40,372 Posts
    • 52,247 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    So they have given me a POPLA code. What's the next step please?
    Search this forum board for 'Premier POPLA' and win on 'no keeper liability'! Easy. Show us your draft from the results of your search.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 12th Oct 16, 8:03 PM
    • 36,436 Posts
    • 73,229 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Hello all,

    They have replied!

    "Dear me,

    Re: Parking Charge Notice xxxxxx

    We must therefore request that the details of the driver of the vehicle at the time of the contravention are supplied; this must include their full name and serviceable UK postal address. If you are unwilling or unable to provide these details the registered keeper of this vehicle will remain liable for this PCN. This information should be provided by 28th September 2016.

    If we do not receive this information by the date given, the registered keeper of the vehicle at the date of event will be held liable.


    Please can someone advise what I do next? There is no POPLA code I noticed...
    Originally posted by Kiddo79
    You should complain to the BPA and DVLA about them demanding the driver details. They actually say that you "must" give them this information. That is a lie. The DVLA told the BPA to tell their members not to request driver details so you should complain that it is still happening.

    Hello all, I have now received this email...

    Dear me,

    Re: Parking Charge Notice 1111111

    We write to acknowledge receipt of your recent online appeal against the issuing of a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) to your vehicle for a breach of the advertised terms and conditions.

    We have considered your comments, and after examining all the evidence relating to the issuing of this PCN, we are satisfied that on this occasion the charge was issued correctly and must advise that your appeal has been denied.

    You have now reached the end of our internal appeals procedure.

    If you would like to view our photographic evidence, please visit our website

    You now have three options;

    1. Pay the Parking Charge Notice at the 14 day reduced amount of £60.00 by 26th October 2016. Please note that after this time the PCN will revert to the original £100.00 charge. Payment can be made online at PCNPayments URL or you may send a cheque made payable to Premier Park Ltd.

    2. Make an appeal to POPLA - The Independent Appeals Service, by completing the form which can be found at POPLA URL or write to POPLA - PO BOX 1270, Warrington – WA4 9RL. You will require this unique POPLA verification code 11111111. If you wish to appeal to POPLA, you will lose the right to pay the charge at the discounted rate of £60.00 and should POPLA’s decision not be found in your favour, you will be required to pay the full amount of £100.00. Your appeal to POPLA must be submitted within 28 days from the date of this email. For more information regarding making an appeal to POPLA, please visit POPLA URL.

    By law we are also required to inform you that Ombudsman Services provides an alternative dispute resolution service that would be competent to deal with your appeal. However, we have not chosen to participate in their alternative dispute resolution service. As such, should you wish to appeal then you must do so to POPLA, as explained above.

    3. If you choose to take no action, we will seek to recover the monies owed to us via our Debt Recovery Service and this may result in proceeding with legal action against you or the Registered Keeper of the vehicle. Please note we will seek to recover all unpaid charges through the use of the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012, Schedule 4 – Collection of Unpaid Parking Charges.

    So they have given me a POPLA code. What's the next step please?

    Thanks in advance
    Originally posted by Kiddo79
    Use you PoPLA code to make an appeal. This is explained in the NEWBIES thread that you say you have read.

    Read the latest successful appeals in the POPLA Decisions sticky thread and use all the relevant points you can find. This will include at least, not the landowner, no standing to issue charges, Non POFA compliant NTK, inadequate signage.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Kiddo79
    • By Kiddo79 24th Oct 16, 5:54 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Kiddo79
    Search this forum board for 'Premier POPLA' and win on 'no keeper liability'! Easy. Show us your draft from the results of your search.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Hi Coupon-mad and others... Is this what I'm ultimately aiming for against Premier Parking?

    "After reviewing the evidence provided in relation to this case, I am not satisfied that the driver of the vehicle has been identified. In order for the operator to transfer liability for the charge from the driver of the vehicle, to the registered keeper, they must comply with the strict requirements set out in the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA). The operator states that they are pursuing the keeper of the vehicle, using the provisions laid out in PoFA. The notice to keeper sent will need to comply with section 9 of PoFA, 2012 that states that the creditor must ‘warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given— . (i)the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and . (ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver, . the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid;’ The operator has provided photographic evidence of the Notice to Keeper issued to the appellant. The Parking Charge Notice (PCN) is not compliant with the requirements of PoFA set out above, in order to transfer liability to the keeper."

    If it is I'm a little worried as my initial NTK states 29 days and not 28. Any advice welcome. I will post my draft appeal in due course. Essentially I'm basing it on Grace Periods as laid out in the BPA COP but if Premier are losing all their cases on the above I will be sure to mention it!! Many thanks again, I'm really hoping this will be successful!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 24th Oct 16, 6:24 PM
    • 40,372 Posts
    • 52,247 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    No, you are not looking to quote POPLA so forget that, as such, although yes that's what you are aiming to hear from POPLA.

    You have missed today's threads then - sorry but I'm not repeating the 'Premier Park flaw' within two hours of posting about it yet again! It is literally all over the forum in every person's POPLA appeal and repeated by me in a post this afternoon.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Kiddo79
    • By Kiddo79 24th Oct 16, 7:35 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Kiddo79
    I don't mean I will quote POPLA, I mean that this would be the expected outcome from the appeal should my appeal deal with No Keeper Liability.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 24th Oct 16, 7:43 PM
    • 36,436 Posts
    • 73,229 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    I don't mean I will quote POPLA, I mean that this would be the expected outcome from the appeal should my appeal deal with No Keeper Liability.
    Originally posted by Kiddo79
    Yes, but keeper liability shouldn't be your only appeal point.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
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