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  • FIRST POST
    • Jade54
    • By Jade54 21st Sep 15, 1:21 PM
    • 7Posts
    • 2Thanks
    Jade54
    Park With Ease - White Moss
    • #1
    • 21st Sep 15, 1:21 PM
    Park With Ease - White Moss 21st Sep 15 at 1:21 PM
    I mistakenly entered the wrong registration number while paying for parking online at White Moss car park near Grasmere, Lake District. I received a receipt for payment and thought all was OK. I didn't realise I'd got the number wrong (just 1 digit) until my hire car company charged me an admin fee, and I queried it with them to be told they had received a letter from Park With Ease demanding a GBP 50 parking charge, for "non payment of parking". I emailed Park With Ease appeals with my receipt to show that I did pay for parking, but got a rather rude reply suggesting that I "chose" to enter the wrong registration number and "chose' to underpay for parking by about 4 minutes, therefore the parking charge still stands. They then advise of my right to appeal through the IAS.

    I noted down our arrival and departure times on the day, knowing I would need to pay online later, and paid for parking based on this, so I contest that I underpaid. Any ideas what could account for the 4 minutes difference?

    My hire car company have forwarded me a letter headed "Parking charge - remains unpaid" demanding GBP 50. It refers to a previous letter, but the hire car company say they have not received anything else from Park With Ease, i.e. no previous letter and no Notice to Keeper. Does this invalidate the parking charge? I gather that a Notice to Keeper has to be sent within 14 days to be valid under the PoFA.

    Before I became aware of all this, the hire car company have already forwarded my details as the hirer to Park With Ease, but I haven't received anything from them yet other than their reply to my email.

    I accept that I made a mistake entering the registration number, but feel that the GBP 50 parking charge for 'non payment of parking" is unreasonable because I did pay for parking on the day. This must be a pretty common error and they should be able to see on their system that they have a payment for a car not showing on their cameras. Also IMO their payment system shouldn't accept numbers that haven't been recorded in the car park.

    I'm looking for some advice on what I should do now? Reply to Park With Ease stating further why I believe the charge is invalid / unjustified? Or go ahead and appeal to the IAS? Or wait / do nothing? I'd be interested to hear what others think?
    Thanks in advance
Page 1
    • ManxRed
    • By ManxRed 21st Sep 15, 1:43 PM
    • 3,394 Posts
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    ManxRed
    • #2
    • 21st Sep 15, 1:43 PM
    • #2
    • 21st Sep 15, 1:43 PM
    Exactly what does it say in your hire agreement with regard to paying parking tickets, and levying admin charges?

    Which Hire Company? £50 is steep.

    Are they members of the BVRLA?

    Did Park With Ease offer you an independent appeal following their appeal rejection?
    Je Suis Cecil.
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 21st Sep 15, 4:50 PM
    • 3,192 Posts
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    The Slithy Tove
    • #3
    • 21st Sep 15, 4:50 PM
    • #3
    • 21st Sep 15, 4:50 PM
    ParkWithEase are on very shaky ground, here. You should raise hell with the Lake District National Park who hired these morons (having thrown out ParkingEye for the very same aggressive practices that ParkWithEase are now employing). Don't take any "it's got nothing to do with us" excuses from the LDNP.

    The problem that they have, even if there is a reason to charge you, is that the signage they use does not say how much they will charge. Not, that is, if the signs are the same as in the Hawkshead car park (which they probably are):


    (This particular photo is a couple of years old, but it's essentially the same today, though the prices have gone up.) It doesn't say how much they will demand, just that they want their costs. I can't see how their costs are £50, when all they've done is pay the DVLA for the keeper details and sent one pro-forma letter.

    Next, their own systems are at fault for even allowing you to enter a VRN that their cameras hadn't picked up, so they cannot justify charging you for their own inadequacies. (Incidentally, I was in the Lakes the other week, parking in Hawkshead, and the machine was not able to recognise my vehicle's number at the time. I paid later online, where it was found).

    As for 4 minutes overstay, they can only ask for 40p for a 20 minute block of time, not £50. And anyway, if you pay at the machine, and are near the end of one of the 20 minute periods they charge, there is no way of saying to the machine "I'll be a few minutes loading up the car and leaving, can I pay more, please." So, again, their systems are at fault.


    Not that any of this will make any difference to PWE's juggernaut. It's the LDNP you must make a strong complaint to about these practices.
    Last edited by The Slithy Tove; 21-09-2015 at 5:07 PM.
    • Northlakes
    • By Northlakes 21st Sep 15, 7:10 PM
    • 821 Posts
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    Northlakes
    • #4
    • 21st Sep 15, 7:10 PM
    • #4
    • 21st Sep 15, 7:10 PM
    This is latest photo taken in July this year. The previous 20 minute 'grace' period has been reduced to 10 minutes.

    Lowther Estates are the landowners.


    image upload
    • Northlakes
    • By Northlakes 21st Sep 15, 7:58 PM
    • 821 Posts
    • 1,155 Thanks
    Northlakes
    • #5
    • 21st Sep 15, 7:58 PM
    • #5
    • 21st Sep 15, 7:58 PM
    This is possibly a rare case where an appeal to the IPC would (or should) be successful.
    The OP has a receipt and the 4 minute extra time is well within the free 10 minute 'grace' period.

    PWE have clearly failed to mitigate any loss by allowing an incorrect VRN to be entered.
    They know exactly the VRN of every vehicle on that car park and if the technology is there do that, the computer can also determine a vehicle which clearly isn't there.

    If PWE were to take this further the OP would then have sufficient proof to show reasonableness on his/her behalf in front of any judge, as there has been no loss at all to PWE.
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 21st Sep 15, 8:02 PM
    • 2,036 Posts
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    fisherjim
    • #6
    • 21st Sep 15, 8:02 PM
    • #6
    • 21st Sep 15, 8:02 PM
    This is latest photo taken in July this year. The previous 20 minute 'grace' period has been reduced to 10 minutes.

    Lowther Estates are the landowners.


    image upload
    Originally posted by Northlakes
    Is it me or do those fees not add up, they have left the examples at the old rate!
    To quote the words of the great Count Arthur Strong "You Couldn't make it up"
    • Northlakes
    • By Northlakes 21st Sep 15, 8:13 PM
    • 821 Posts
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    Northlakes
    • #7
    • 21st Sep 15, 8:13 PM
    • #7
    • 21st Sep 15, 8:13 PM
    Is it me or do those fees not add up, they have left the examples at the old rate!
    Originally posted by fisherjim
    Quite right. They have increased the charges but not increased the example prices.
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 21st Sep 15, 8:39 PM
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    fisherjim
    • #8
    • 21st Sep 15, 8:39 PM
    • #8
    • 21st Sep 15, 8:39 PM
    Quite right. They have increased the charges but not increased the example prices.
    Originally posted by Northlakes
    Nice little trap there then!
    To quote the words of the great Count Arthur Strong "You Couldn't make it up"
    • ampersand
    • By ampersand 21st Sep 15, 8:49 PM
    • 8,123 Posts
    • 30,364 Thanks
    ampersand
    • #9
    • 21st Sep 15, 8:49 PM
    • #9
    • 21st Sep 15, 8:49 PM
    A small note - 'By parking at this site, you, the driver, are agreeing to the following contractual terms,.........'
    #
    Many times, it is passenger/child who sees how much is needed then comes back for change or feeds the machine then and there.

    It can't be a requirement of the alleged contract that 'the driver' reads the signage.
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    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 21st Sep 15, 9:03 PM
    • 3,192 Posts
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    The Slithy Tove
    Quite right. They have increased the charges but not increased the example prices.
    Originally posted by Northlakes
    Bit like Royal Devon & Exeter hospital car park, where the machines charge higher amounts from what the signs say. Some fun to be had there, I am sure.
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 21st Sep 15, 9:05 PM
    • 3,192 Posts
    • 4,591 Thanks
    The Slithy Tove
    This is latest photo taken in July this year. The previous 20 minute 'grace' period has been reduced to 10 minutes.

    Lowther Estates are the landowners.
    Originally posted by Northlakes
    In that case, ignore most of what I said. Interesting that LDNP seems to be rather different from other examples of PWE signs. I wonder what PWE tries to charge in those cases, and whether there is any latitude in the contract to allow them to go to court (unlikely given the PE experience).
    • Jade54
    • By Jade54 30th Sep 15, 9:22 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Jade54
    Thanks to all for your replies and the photos of the signs :-)


    Does anyone have any thoughts on the best course of action now? When I first emailed PWE I wasn't aware of the mistake with the reg, so my appeal to them was simply look I did pay, here's my receipt. Would it be advisable to send a more detailed appeal to PWE, or go straight to an appeal through the IAS (which is what PWE's response offered)?


    ManxRed - the hire company was Enterprise. I don't have the agreement with me right now, but will check it. It definitely said they were supposed to contact me before debiting any charges, which hasn't happened. So I am appealing with them too....
    • ManxRed
    • By ManxRed 30th Sep 15, 9:43 AM
    • 3,394 Posts
    • 4,485 Thanks
    ManxRed
    ManxRed - the hire company was Enterprise. I don't have the agreement with me right now, but will check it. It definitely said they were supposed to contact me before debiting any charges, which hasn't happened. So I am appealing with them too....
    Originally posted by Jade54
    If you can get the exact wording on the agreement then you may have a much stronger case than them simply not telling you before they did it.

    Expect a fight though.
    Je Suis Cecil.
    • Northlakes
    • By Northlakes 30th Sep 15, 10:38 AM
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    Northlakes
    I think the OP in this case should appeal to the IPC. I just hope that this is done within the tight timescale so as not to jeopardise the appeal.
    • Jade54
    • By Jade54 30th Sep 15, 11:06 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Jade54
    Thanks for the advice. PWE rejected my initial appeal on the 18th Sept, so I should have another week to get an IPC appeal in. Will aim to submit it sooner though...
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 30th Sep 15, 11:11 AM
    • 1,187 Posts
    • 2,148 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    I think the OP in this case should appeal ..

    ... to the company that hired PWE. It is clear that the Principals are failing to supervise the contracts that they agree with the PPC.

    It is a clear responsibility on any landowner/occupier to manage the contractors they hire. Any employment lawyer would make mincemeat out of Principals that failed to monitor / control the contractors. It is exactly the same here.

    It also provides an avenue to take action of any landowner/occupier acting jointly with their contractor against the public interest
    Life's for living, get on with it rather than worrying about these. If they hassle, counter claim.
    • Northlakes
    • By Northlakes 30th Sep 15, 11:45 AM
    • 821 Posts
    • 1,155 Thanks
    Northlakes
    Like the PPC, Lowther Estates are only interested in the money. That's probably why the lease at this site to the National Trust wasn't extended and they took this land back under their management.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 30th Sep 15, 12:19 PM
    • 45,770 Posts
    • 58,733 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Do not appeal to the IAS. They will say, wrong car reg so pay up. Ignore the 'appeal' to the kangaroo court they are offering and complain to the landowner.

    Ignore PWE's debt collector threatograms and relax. Any IAS appeal will lose.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Northlakes
    • By Northlakes 30th Sep 15, 9:45 PM
    • 821 Posts
    • 1,155 Thanks
    Northlakes
    Unusually I'm just a bit concerned at CM's reply. PWE are being encouraged (by you know who) to issue court claims. It a win win for a legal firm but not the PPC!

    See this thread.

    http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?452902-Park-With-Ease-and-County-Court-Papers-White-Moss-in-the-lake-district

    and this,

    http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?453008-Park-With-Ease-Claim-Form-Lake-District(4-Viewing)-nbsp

    IPC appeals is a sifting operation and if you have a solid case it is worth a short appeal just to show that the OP won't just roll over. When the OP's case is won it also shows observance of due process and will help to gain a costs award.
    Last edited by Northlakes; 30-09-2015 at 10:02 PM.
    • Northlakes
    • By Northlakes 1st Oct 15, 5:25 AM
    • 821 Posts
    • 1,155 Thanks
    Northlakes
    OP: Questions.

    You have a receipt for a certain amount from PWE. Did the machine request a certain payment for that period of parking or did you give the machine what you thought it was owed?

    How did the ANPR know it was your vehicle if you entered a slightly wrong number?

    It seems very odd but this car park is showing up a inordinate number of cases on here and other forums.

    I know its difficult when your away but it is essential with this car park to check online after the event that everything is correct.
    Last edited by Northlakes; 01-10-2015 at 5:30 AM.
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