IMPORTANT: Please make sure your posts do not contain any personally identifiable information (both your own and that of others). When uploading images, please take care that you have redacted all personal information including QR codes, number plates and reference numbers.
🗳️ ELECTION 2024: THE MSE LEADERS' DEBATE Got a burning question you want us to ask the party leaders ahead of the general election? Post them on our dedicated Forum board where you can see and upvote other users' questions, or submit your suggestions via this form. Please note that the Forum's rules on avoiding general political discussion still apply across all boards.
PCN at Sportspace Hemel
Options
vivatifosi
Posts: 18,746 Forumite
Hi everyone and thanks in anticipation for your help.
I have received a PCN from Civil Enforcement Ltd for parking at Sportspace in Hemel. I am writing as the registered keeper of the vehicle.
I've gone through all of the stickies, but have a couple of questions in addition.
Q1: Is PCN incorrectly issued?
The PCN is based on an ANPR system. There is no on-car ticketing at this location, you just receive a notice in the post. The notice is dated 21 days after the "Incident date", this seems to be in breach of umkomaas's very helpful post here:
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=63678135&postcount=3
Is that correct?
Q2&3: How does burden of proof work for machines without ticket? How to structure a letter where the driver is a regular user?
The system at Sportspace involves entering a numberplate on the system. It does not however give receipts. The driver of the car has been using the Sportspace car park to a pattern of usage which the parking company would be able to see if they looked. Therefore the letter would need to tailor out the "the signs were not seen" element, but equally how do you prove something was entered if the system does not offer a receipt? Where does the burden of proof move to? The user is also adamant that they always enter their number plate. The driver of the car is also a member of Sportspace and has a membership card with a unique number.
In other words, I know that the template letter will need some rewriting for the circumstances, but need some help knowing what to change.
Q4: Is the wording correct
The invoice states "We therefore require payment of this Parking Charge Notice, in accordance with the Parking Terms and Conditions clearly stated on the signage: Maximum 3 hours free parking for authorised users only."
It does not state on the PCN that you must enter your numberplate, however on the date in question the driver on the card was at the sports centre, as an authorised user, and the sports centre will have a record of class attendance for the time in question. Furthermore the time period was for just over 1 hour, not 3 hours or more.
A little bit of additional info in case this is of use:
As the driver of the car is a regular user of the car park, they are unable to say where they were parking on the date in question or say which is the nearest sign as they have parked in many bays prior to this and not got a ticket. However a generic picture of the signage which we believe to be representative has been uploaded onto a separate site here:
http://i61.tinypic.com/2euoegi.jpg
Sportspace has a number of car parks. The PCN does not state which car park is the subject of the breach, nor does the driver know.
The PCN is for £100, reduced amount is £60.
I have received a PCN from Civil Enforcement Ltd for parking at Sportspace in Hemel. I am writing as the registered keeper of the vehicle.
I've gone through all of the stickies, but have a couple of questions in addition.
Q1: Is PCN incorrectly issued?
The PCN is based on an ANPR system. There is no on-car ticketing at this location, you just receive a notice in the post. The notice is dated 21 days after the "Incident date", this seems to be in breach of umkomaas's very helpful post here:
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=63678135&postcount=3
Is that correct?
Q2&3: How does burden of proof work for machines without ticket? How to structure a letter where the driver is a regular user?
The system at Sportspace involves entering a numberplate on the system. It does not however give receipts. The driver of the car has been using the Sportspace car park to a pattern of usage which the parking company would be able to see if they looked. Therefore the letter would need to tailor out the "the signs were not seen" element, but equally how do you prove something was entered if the system does not offer a receipt? Where does the burden of proof move to? The user is also adamant that they always enter their number plate. The driver of the car is also a member of Sportspace and has a membership card with a unique number.
In other words, I know that the template letter will need some rewriting for the circumstances, but need some help knowing what to change.
Q4: Is the wording correct
The invoice states "We therefore require payment of this Parking Charge Notice, in accordance with the Parking Terms and Conditions clearly stated on the signage: Maximum 3 hours free parking for authorised users only."
It does not state on the PCN that you must enter your numberplate, however on the date in question the driver on the card was at the sports centre, as an authorised user, and the sports centre will have a record of class attendance for the time in question. Furthermore the time period was for just over 1 hour, not 3 hours or more.
A little bit of additional info in case this is of use:
As the driver of the car is a regular user of the car park, they are unable to say where they were parking on the date in question or say which is the nearest sign as they have parked in many bays prior to this and not got a ticket. However a generic picture of the signage which we believe to be representative has been uploaded onto a separate site here:
http://i61.tinypic.com/2euoegi.jpg
Sportspace has a number of car parks. The PCN does not state which car park is the subject of the breach, nor does the driver know.
The PCN is for £100, reduced amount is £60.
Please stay safe in the sun and learn the A-E of melanoma: A = asymmetry, B = irregular borders, C= different colours, D= diameter, larger than 6mm, E = evolving, is your mole changing? Most moles are not cancerous, any doubts, please check next time you visit your GP.
0
Comments
-
vivatifosi wrote: »The PCN is based on an ANPR system. There is no on-car ticketing at this location, you just receive a notice in the post. The notice is dated 21 days after the "Incident date", this seems to be in breach of umkomaas's very helpful post here:
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=63678135&postcount=3
Is that correct?
Yes that is most certainly a breach and you should complain to the BPA and DVLA that CEL has requested keeper details without reasonable cause, given that it did not wait the 28 days stipulated in POFA 2012 Schedule 4.vivatifosi wrote: »Q2&3: How does burden of proof work for machines without ticket? How to structure a letter where the driver is a regular user?
...
In other words, I know that the template letter will need some rewriting for the circumstances, but need some help knowing what to change.
No need to over-think this. Remove anything from the standard appeal which obviously does not apply, and add in the point about the NtK failing to establish keeper liability due to being too early. But "not a GPEOL" is what will win it for you.vivatifosi wrote: »Q4: Is the wording correct
The invoice states "We therefore require payment of this Parking Charge Notice, in accordance with the Parking Terms and Conditions clearly stated on the signage: Maximum 3 hours free parking for authorised users only."
Difficult to deploy this point without revealing who was driving.vivatifosi wrote: »Sportspace has a number of car parks. The PCN does not state which car park is the subject of the breach, nor does the driver know.
Which is another reason why the NtK fails to establish keeper liability under POFA 2102 Schedule 4. The location must be specified. Throw it in.
IMPORTANT: complain in the strongest possible terms to Dacorum Sports Trust about a member being harassed and pursued by their parking parasite.
If you are a Dacorum resident complain to your councillor(s). The council may lease the site to Dacorum Sports Trust but the council still owns the site and, crucially, pays an operating grant to the Trust, so the council certainly has the clout to stop this if it receives enough complaints.
Also complain to the Charity Commission that Dacorum Sport Trust's engagement of a predatory parking company to harass and bully the very people the Trust exists to serve is incompatible with its charitable status.Je suis Charlie.0 -
If the car park is 'free' to use, unless you get a ticket, you could investigate the local councils rateable value for the Car Park, not the main building. I have a gut feeling that, if subcontracted out, the PPC may declare the car park as 0% rateable because, in theory, it generates no revenue because it's 'free'.The Laughingbear0
-
Crikey that was quick! Many thanks bazster for your considered and brilliant reply. I'll get on to it straight away.
Thanks also to the many people who put together the stickies. They can't all be thanked anymore due to the threads being closed, but I wanted to pass on my appreciation anyway.Please stay safe in the sun and learn the A-E of melanoma: A = asymmetry, B = irregular borders, C= different colours, D= diameter, larger than 6mm, E = evolving, is your mole changing? Most moles are not cancerous, any doubts, please check next time you visit your GP.
0 -
Yes that is most certainly a breach and you should complain to the BPA and DVLA that CEL has requested keeper details without reasonable cause, given that it did not wait the 28 days stipulated in POFA 2012 Schedule 4.
@bazster. Have I misunderstood/missed a point you're making here? This was an ANPR case, therefore the NtK must be delivered to the RK within 14 days. At 21 days CEL are late in delivery.Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .
I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.
Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street0 -
@bazster. Have I misunderstood/missed a point you're making here? This was an ANPR case, therefore the NtK must be delivered to the RK within 14 days. At 21 days CEL are late in delivery.
Thanks folks, going back over your notes Umkomaas I was going to query this. I will await your response before telling them they are too late/early.Please stay safe in the sun and learn the A-E of melanoma: A = asymmetry, B = irregular borders, C= different colours, D= diameter, larger than 6mm, E = evolving, is your mole changing? Most moles are not cancerous, any doubts, please check next time you visit your GP.
0 -
@bazster. Have I misunderstood/missed a point you're making here? This was an ANPR case, therefore the NtK must be delivered to the RK within 14 days. At 21 days CEL are late in delivery.
Correct, it's me who is in error, apologies. They are too late not too early.Je suis Charlie.0 -
Good news everyone. Have received a letter from Civil Enforcement Ltd this morning. They have cancelled the notice without me needing to take it to POPLA.
Essentially I used the template letter with a couple of mods, so couldn't have done it without all of you. Thanks to everyone who helped.
Will let you know of any future updates re speaking to the council/Sports Centre as and when they happen. I wanted to find out the outcome first, before taking that part further.Please stay safe in the sun and learn the A-E of melanoma: A = asymmetry, B = irregular borders, C= different colours, D= diameter, larger than 6mm, E = evolving, is your mole changing? Most moles are not cancerous, any doubts, please check next time you visit your GP.
0 -
Well done! They're seeing sense at last when it comes to certain defeat at PoPLA.Je suis Charlie.0
-
Hi, hope this is allowed onto thread. I have never been here before. Picked young son up from a class in holidays. Saw signs. From the car.. Assumed free for 3 hours...because that's what I understood from what I saw on sign. Sat in car in space for 25 mins until he came out...I was 10 mins early and he was 15 mins late out. Got a ticket in post ! Didn't have any idea what it referred to until did research. Do I really have to pay this? I might technically get one each day for the whole week!! Joy. Help!!0
-
No it's not allowed on this thread, please start your own.Je suis Charlie.0
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 10 Election 2024: The MSE Leaders' Debate
- 343.9K Banking & Borrowing
- 250.3K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
- 450K Spending & Discounts
- 236K Work, Benefits & Business
- 609.3K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
- 173.4K Life & Family
- 248.7K Travel & Transport
- 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
- 15.9K Discuss & Feedback
- 15.1K Coronavirus Support Boards