'Free' Water reality check
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MFW_ASAP
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My ultimate goal is to have a comfortable, worry free life and with that in mind I was considering how to reduce or remove my utility bills. I have various options with the gas and electricity bills (PV, insulation, etc.) that I've put / I'm putting into practice and now I'm turning my attention to the water bill.
Our metered water bill is currently £52 per month for 5 adults and one child. I've done as much to reduce the amount of water we use by fitting water saving devices and now I'm looking at reducing the payment to zero.
I have worked out that I can reduce the bill by a half by fitting a rainwater harvesting system for a maximum of £3.5k (this gives us a payback period of just over 11 years). This will reduce my monthly utility bill down to £26pm.
The plan is to then buy shares in the water supplier (United Utilities) to cover the £26pm / £312pa via dividend payments. At today's shareprice, I would need to invest £10k in UU shares which would provide an annual dividend of £334.00, covering the cost of the utility.
Essentially I would not have to think about the water bill ever again, I'll have done my bit for the environment by reducing flood risks from flash downpours and stopping using drinking water for flushing toilets and I'll also have capital gains from any increase in the 11,000 shares I'd hold in United Utilities.
Thoughts?
Our metered water bill is currently £52 per month for 5 adults and one child. I've done as much to reduce the amount of water we use by fitting water saving devices and now I'm looking at reducing the payment to zero.
I have worked out that I can reduce the bill by a half by fitting a rainwater harvesting system for a maximum of £3.5k (this gives us a payback period of just over 11 years). This will reduce my monthly utility bill down to £26pm.
The plan is to then buy shares in the water supplier (United Utilities) to cover the £26pm / £312pa via dividend payments. At today's shareprice, I would need to invest £10k in UU shares which would provide an annual dividend of £334.00, covering the cost of the utility.
Essentially I would not have to think about the water bill ever again, I'll have done my bit for the environment by reducing flood risks from flash downpours and stopping using drinking water for flushing toilets and I'll also have capital gains from any increase in the 11,000 shares I'd hold in United Utilities.
Thoughts?
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Comments
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HiMy ultimate goal is to have a comfortable, worry free life and with that in mind I was considering how to reduce or remove my utility bills. I have various options with the gas and electricity bills (PV, insulation, etc.) that I've put / I'm putting into practice and now I'm turning my attention to the water bill.
Our metered water bill is currently £52 per month for 5 adults and one child. I've done as much to reduce the amount of water we use by fitting water saving devices and now I'm looking at reducing the payment to zero.
I have worked out that I can reduce the bill by a half by fitting a rainwater harvesting system for a maximum of £3.5k (this gives us a payback period of just over 11 years). This will reduce my monthly utility bill down to £26pm.
The plan is to then buy shares in the water supplier (United Utilities) to cover the £26pm / £312pa via dividend payments. At today's shareprice, I would need to invest £10k in UU shares which would provide an annual dividend of £334.00, covering the cost of the utility.
Essentially I would not have to think about the water bill ever again, I'll have done my bit for the environment by reducing flood risks from flash downpours and stopping using drinking water for flushing toilets and I'll also have capital gains from any increase in the 11,000 shares I'd hold in United Utilities.
Thoughts?
Okay, apart from mentioning that the value of investments (and dividends) can go down as well as up and that spreading risk is a reasonable strategy, lets look at the saving ...
£3.5k .... what does it buy in terms of features & capacity? also, what have you factored in to the water bill savings to achieve 50% ? ....
HTH
Z"We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
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Hi
Okay, apart from mentioning that the value of investments (and dividends) can go down as well as up and that spreading risk is a reasonable strategy, lets look at the saving ...
£3.5k .... what does it buy in terms of features & capacity? also, what have you factored in to the water bill savings to achieve 50% ? ....
HTH
Z
I posted something similar to this on the investments board and they said the same thing about spreading risk, etc. so I've parked the idea of just having the UU shares in favour of income funds.
The recycling savings cover the reduction in supply from us using rainwater for non-potable requirements such as flushing toilets, washing machine, etc. the reduction in sewage costs which is calculated by the water companies by looking at the amount of water supplied, and from a surface drainage reduction by having surplus rainwater go into our stream.
The £3500 estimate for the rainwater recycling system was formed from me looking at a top-end system, as I'm a keen DIYer, I could probably get this reduced, so the payback should be less.0 -
Hi
Water usage for 6 would be pretty high, I'd guess that you'd be looking at something in the region of 5-10 tonnes of storage, so that's excavating/moving somewhere near a possible 15cubic metres (45tonnes ?) of soil from under your lawn and finding somewhere to dump up to 30 tonnes of it ... that's probably a couple of lorry loads and some heavy equipment hire or ~10skips to hire if you can't find somewhere in your own garden ... I'd guess that a basic high end 6.5tonne system would cost around £3.5k delivered, not installed, so you really do need to look at specialist installation services, equipment hire, ancillary materials such as tubes/pipes and plumbing materials ...
When you've got all that done, there's the run-off to consider. In order to reduce your bills you'll need to disconnect all surface water drainage & convince the water company that there'll be no run-off which could enter their system ... that might mean intercepting any possible run-off and diverting it to a soak-away on your own property. Once this is done you'll naturally inform the water company in order to get the reduction, and of course, they'll immediately invoke their right to separate metered water delivery from disposal and re-assess your sewerage disposal payment ...
Of course, you could significantly reduce the cost of the installation be specifying above-ground storage tanks (heat/algae/ice?) or using IBCs (same issues), but for 6 people it's going to take up a considerable area and possibly look a little out-of-place.
HTH
Z"We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle0 -
Hi
Water usage for 6 would be pretty high, I'd guess that you'd be looking at something in the region of 5-10 tonnes of storage, so that's excavating/moving somewhere near a possible 15cubic metres (45tonnes ?) of soil from under your lawn and finding somewhere to dump up to 30 tonnes of it ... that's probably a couple of lorry loads and some heavy equipment hire or ~10skips to hire if you can't find somewhere in your own garden ... I'd guess that a basic high end 6.5tonne system would cost around £3.5k delivered, not installed, so you really do need to look at specialist installation services, equipment hire, ancillary materials such as tubes/pipes and plumbing materials ...
When you've got all that done, there's the run-off to consider. In order to reduce your bills you'll need to disconnect all surface water drainage & convince the water company that there'll be no run-off which could enter their system ... that might mean intercepting any possible run-off and diverting it to a soak-away on your own property. Once this is done you'll naturally inform the water company in order to get the reduction, and of course, they'll immediately invoke their right to separate metered water delivery from disposal and re-assess your sewerage disposal payment ...
Of course, you could significantly reduce the cost of the installation be specifying above-ground storage tanks (heat/algae/ice?) or using IBCs (same issues), but for 6 people it's going to take up a considerable area and possibly look a little out-of-place.
HTH
Z
I'm lucky that we have a stream on our property that I already have a run off to (French drain around the base of the house runs to the stream). The rainwater pipes are easy to access under the gravel I put down when I laid the gravel for the French drain. I can disconnect them from the sewer and have them run to the chamber where all my land drains join the pipe that runs into the stream. Once this is in place I'll contact the utility company and get my surface water rebate.
As soon as the utility Man leaves, I can borrow my mates digger to dig the hole for the tank and use the dirt to bank up the stream some more. The part of the garden I'm putting the tank is just gravel, so no landscaping worries. There will be minimal installation costs, I just need to source a cheap 5000 litre tank.0 -
HiI'm lucky that we have a stream on our property that I already have a run off to (French drain around the base of the house runs to the stream). The rainwater pipes are easy to access under the gravel I put down when I laid the gravel for the French drain. I can disconnect them from the sewer and have them run to the chamber where all my land drains join the pipe that runs into the stream. Once this is in place I'll contact the utility company and get my surface water rebate.
As soon as the utility Man leaves, I can borrow my mates digger to dig the hole for the tank and use the dirt to bank up the stream some more. The part of the garden I'm putting the tank is just gravel, so no landscaping worries. There will be minimal installation costs, I just need to source a cheap 5000 litre tank.
Don't know how far down the DIY route you want to go and how you envisage it all working. 5000l below ground tank will likely cost £1300-£1500 gross if you source from a generic tank supplier as opposed to a RWH solution provider. If your ground has any sharp-edged stones (etc) make sure that the tank is protected by either wrapping correctly or back-filling around it with sand. The delivery mechanism could be to batch-pump to new header in the loft based on level sensors and gravity feed to where it's needed, but be careful that the cistern valves allow adequate flow rates under low pressure conditions or it'll take an age to refill (obviously depends in header tank height) which simply causes frustration. Filtration systems are pretty easy to build, but they usually end up being untidy, then there's the switchover to mains supply when the RWH tank is empty or the pump's packed in ... You can source 'on demand' pump controllers with auto switch-over between sources from RWH specialists, but they're not cheap, neither are pumps which can reliably lift/create a reasonable flow rate from a couple of metres below ground to a second or third storey/loft, so maybe 8-10metres.
Keep us in the picture ...
HTH
Z"We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle0 -
As soon as the utility Man leaves, I can borrow my mates digger to dig the hole for the tank and use the dirt to bank up the stream some more. The part of the garden I'm putting the tank is just gravel, so no landscaping worries. There will be minimal installation costs, I just need to source a cheap 5000 litre tank.
Morning. Can I just share something funny(ish) in case you aren't already aware of this.
If you put the tank in the ground, and the ground is wet with water access (you mentioned gravel), then remember that an empty tank will 'float'.
So, whenever it's weight is less than it's buoyancy (since water will try to fill the hole it's sitting in) it'll want to pop up out of the ground. This happens to cess-pits when they are new/emptied and sitting in wet ground, so you may need to place a large weight (concrete cap) on top, since a 5000 litre tank will contain approx 5 tonnes of lift when empty and sitting in a waterlogged hole. Obviously, when the ground is 'most wet', the tank is probably 'most full', but best to be aware if DIY'ing.
Mart.Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW). Two A2A units for cleaner heating.
For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.0 -
I quite like the rainwater system supplied by this company:
http://www.rainwaterharvesting.co.uk/house-and-garden-systems-with-rain-director-duk4/flat-tank-gravity-feed-rainwater-harvesting-system-5000-litre-duk4/rwh-5099fl-duk4/
It seems to tick all the boxes. I'm looking for a 'fit and forget' solution with all of the products I install at the house and this fits the bill. It has a tank in the loft so it's not running the pump every time we flush a toilet, it's approved by water authorities due to its separation of rainwater and mains backup and the loft tank drains down if unused for holiday periods, etc.
The price including VAT is a couple of hundred pounds down from my estimate, which I can use to buy fuel for the digger and some ancilliary pipework. The tank is quite shallow too, so I don't have to dig as deep as I first thought.
Has anyone on here ever used this company?0 -
With United Utilities the charge for Surface Water Drainage(SWD) is £75pa(2014/15).
To reduce your bill by 50% even allowing for SWD deduction, I calculate you will need to use approx. 95 cubic metres of rainwater pa. That is also assuming that you don't intend paying the sewerage charge of £1.264/cubic metre for rainwater you are diverting into the sewer via your house;)
I am a little puzzled why you need to store rainwater, when it would surely be easy to divert/pump water from your stream to a tank?0 -
I am a little puzzled why you need to store rainwater, when it would surely be easy to divert/pump water from your stream to a tank?
Abstraction licence fee.
Abstraction charges.
Abstraction licence restrictions during expected low rainfall months.
Special abstraction restrictions during unexpectedly low rainfall periods.
Unless these extra costs can be offset by savings on a smaller tank (anticipating a more reliable/predictable source of water from the stream) then they'll only add to the cost, since rainfall is both cost and licence free. And supplied by gravity.
Mart.Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW). Two A2A units for cleaner heating.
For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.0 -
Martyn1981 wrote: »Abstraction licence fee.
Abstraction charges.
Abstraction licence restrictions during expected low rainfall months.
Special abstraction restrictions during unexpectedly low rainfall periods.
Unless these extra costs can be offset by savings on a smaller tank (anticipating a more reliable/predictable source of water from the stream) then they'll only add to the cost, since rainfall is both cost and licence free. And supplied by gravity.
Mart.
Agreed; it would be dreadful not to conform to the strict letter of the law.
However you can see from the OP's earlier posts -'as soon as the Utility man leaves etc' he is not exactly playing this straight.
If he were to be squeak clean he would be paying sewerage charges for all the rainwater fed to toilets etc.0
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