A MUST INCLUDE appeal point for all POPLA claims.

Guys_Dad · 12 August 2013 at 5:39PM

From the thread just posted on the POPLA Decisions thread by Zaly today at 5.27, we have at last an adjudicator who has displayed a real understanding and common sense. This appeal point is a MUST for all newbies

I quote

"The Operator submitted that the charge is based upon the cost of enforcing parking restrictions at the site (for example, by erecting signage andemploying administrative staff) and the charge was agreed by the land owner and specified on site signage.

However, this does not represent a loss resulting from a breach of the parking contract. The loss specified by the Operator is the cost of providing parking enforcement at the site. In other words, were no breach to have occurred the cost of parking enforcement would still have been the same.

Consequently, I have no evidence before me to refute the Appellant’s submission that the parking charge is unenforceable.

I must allow the appeal on this ground.

Matthew Shaw

Assessor

Now I know this is not news for some of us, nor is it an absolute precedent, but at least we now have a specific successful appeal to refer people to

Umkomaas · 12 August 2013 at 7:16PM

I concur GD.

A couple of things strike me here.

Firstly, anyone appearing at the small claims court, particularly with PE, but with any PPC, this appeal adjudication should form part of their defence bundle. Here we have it in black and white by the National Appeals Service specialising in car parking on private land, making it quite clear that the costs of managing and enforcing car parking are NOT losses.

Secondly, if the PE charge was not for losses, then what was it? The only conclusion that any fair-minded person can reach is that it is a PENALTY or a FINE (yes Aldi - you were absolutely spot on with your understanding on this!).

So I wonder now whether POPLA will include this major issue when reporting to the DVLA, the DfT and to ministers.

PS - I bet Matthew Shaw is as popular as cholera in PPC circles - but well done Matthew for standing up for what is right!

Computersaysno · 12 August 2013 at 9:43PM

Yes, Matthew has nicely explained the difference between 'operating costs' and 'damages'.

Guys_Dad · 13 August 2013 at 8:46AM

I am shamelessly bumping the thread for a couple of days as the adjudication is well worth pointing out to those writing their POPLA appeals.

But the way to present it in the appeal is to draw attention to the fact that any claimed estimated loss is only to be as a result of your alleged contravention. Whereas the cost of going to the DVLA, stamps and stationery are a true cost or loss specifically incurred in relation to you, any other claimed amount is a cost attributed to running the business and would still be exactly the same if you had been elsewhere on the day in question.

The PPC business model for income to cover the cost of managing a car park is not a concern for you or POPLA and is something between the PPC and landowner.

Custard_Pie · 13 August 2013 at 10:25AM

One suspects that Mr Shaw will not be getting a job soon with a PPC or with The BPA! LOL

That's all it took to expose the scam.

kirkbyinfurnesslad_2 · 13 August 2013 at 10:55AM

Guys dad, just a quick thought.as more ppc's use the template for landowners etc I think we will see more wins on genuine loss grounds only. It will be very hard for the ppc to prove the loss to them at the relevent car park.

Having seen ukcps loss documents they are a joke

The_Slithy_Tove · 13 August 2013 at 11:56AM

Note how the recent POPLA teach-in talked about how to word the signage to make the charge a contractural charge rather than damages for breach of contract. Don't know if we'll see more of these, whereupon the PPCs will have a whole new set of questions to answer. For example:
* If it's £100 to park in a disabled space, where do I pay
* Are you really offering parking on yellow lines for £100, or is it actually simply a deterrent, and therefore a de-facto penalty
* Once I've paid my £100, can I now park on the lines/in disabled spaces/over 2 hours for ever - if not, see previous point
* Unfair Contract terms - i.e. is £100 really a fair sum for parking 1 minute more than the free 2 hours
* and so on

Custard_Pie · 13 August 2013 at 12:00PM

Can we make this a sticky?

Computersaysno · 13 August 2013 at 4:40PM

The_Slithy_Tove wrote: »

1. Are you really offering parking on yellow lines for £100, or is it actually simply a deterrent, and therefore a de-facto penalty
2. Once I've paid my £100, can I now park on the lines/in disabled spaces/over 2 hours for ever - if not, see previous point
3. Unfair Contract terms - i.e. is £100 really a fair sum for parking 1 minute more than the free 2 hours

1. If they word the signage correct it then it's a genuine offer.

2. Again altered signage can deal with that one

3. Price setting as core terms of a contract does not come under 'unfair' [Is an NCP at £20/hr 'fair', or is a Bentley at £175,000 fair when I can get a Kia for £7k??].

All the above are merely imo....

jfinnie · 13 August 2013 at 9:31PM

I guess you are assuming the signage is good and clear enough to actually be guarantee to be seen for such changes to signage to be valid.

My car got "done" somewhere I've always parked but has just put up a single, high level sign claiming such a charge. It is clearly a nonsense - no-one in their right mind would agree to such terms as there is a free car park at a Co-op less than a minute walk. I parked where I did because it was convenient and I saw no reason not to. Had I seen the sign, there is no-way I would park.

And of course, at the moment the sign in question would seem to offer me unlimited parking for ever for my £60. I'm minded to head down the auction and buy 4 cars to fill all their spaces. As it is private land, they don't even need tax and insurance. Just declare them SORN and pay my £60. Then sue them for breach of contract when they decide to get the vehicles moved.

The only people who are being issued with PCNs at that site are people who haven't seen the new sign, just like a majority of these scams. So tell me how many contracts are formed?

A MUST INCLUDE appeal point for all POPLA claims.

Comments

Categories

Get our FREE Weekly email full of deals & guides - and it’s spam-free