🗳️ ELECTION 2024: THE MSE LEADERS' DEBATE Got a burning question you want us to ask the party leaders ahead of the general election? Submit your suggestions via this form or post them on our dedicated Forum board where you can see and upvote other users' questions. Please note that the Forum's rules on avoiding general political discussion still apply across all boards.

Failure vs determination of a trust

Options
Hello,

I am reading a Will that refers to the event of a trust that fails or determines. My understanding is that a trust fails if the last of its beneficiaries dies. Is that correct?

What does it mean for a trust to determine?

Thanks.

Comments

  • John_Pierpoint
    John_Pierpoint Posts: 8,391 Forumite
    First Post First Anniversary
    edited 21 July 2013 at 7:16AM
    Options
    I think you need to publish the exact text that is intended to create a trust.
    My guess is that the wording contains an "if then ...else" structure about a future event. This introduces an element of "wait and see". The future event is limited by a statute of limitations, so the result has to determine within a measurable time. [it is not good nor realistic for a society to have the dead to rule their descendants from the grave, especially if the descendants can be kept "in limbo" for years on end.].
  • slb2008
    slb2008 Posts: 32 Forumite
    Options
    You are right. The clause is this:

    If the trusts declared concerning any share or shares of my Residuary Estate shall fail or determine then from the date of such failure or determination such share or shares (and any share or shares or part or parts of a share or shares which may accrue thereto by virtue of this provision) shall accrue and be added to the other share or shares of my Residuary Estate (and if more than one in the proportions which those shares then bear to each other) the trusts of which shall not at that date have failed or determined and be held upon the like trusts and subject to the like powers and provisions as those affecting such other share or shares of my Residuary Estate

    I wonder if the author was aiming to achieve a Golden Bull award from the Plain English Campaign...
  • John_Pierpoint
    John_Pierpoint Posts: 8,391 Forumite
    First Post First Anniversary
    edited 24 July 2013 at 9:59AM
    Options
    The lawyer might have added this clause as a subtle get out from instructions given by a client trying to rule from the grave, that the client would not understand (and nor do I).

    Alternatively it may have been written by a graduate of the circumlocution office:

    http://www.bl.uk/learning/histcitizen/21cc/lang/control1/circumlocution1/circumlocution.html

    Is the will trying to set up mini discretionary trusts for the benefit of individuals and their heirs, ie nil rate band discretionary trusts, each below the level where they will be regularly "milked" for InHeritance Tax.
    [They would still be liable for CGT and Income Tax at the highest current rates]

    I think part of tortuous language us because it is looking to a date in the future, by which time the shares, the beneficiaries and the law might have changed.

    I think the word "share" is not referring to a certificate of ownership in a joint stock company but a subdivision of the estate as a whole?
  • slb2008
    slb2008 Posts: 32 Forumite
    Options
    The Will instructs us to setup one trust which is intended to avoid double inheritance tax, I don't think it involves 'mini discretionary trusts'.I think the trusts referred to are the instructions to pay particular beneficiaries, these being conditional on who is alive at the time the Will is executed.
    Yes, 'share' is used in this Will to refer to subdivisions of the estate.

    A slightly less elaborate version of this clause is referenced in:
    http://www.legalservicesconsumerpanel.org.uk/ourwork/will_writing/documents/Thompsons.pdf

    Their explanation is this:

    This clause is included where an estate instead of going to one person is divided into shares. It provides that if a person named to benefit from a share dies, the share they would have had is divided equally between the remaining persons due to get shares.

    So it seems that the answer to my original question about the difference between failure and determination is that there is no difference.
  • John_Pierpoint
    John_Pierpoint Posts: 8,391 Forumite
    First Post First Anniversary
    edited 25 July 2013 at 3:16AM
    Options
    Having read the will outline that a firm of solicitors appears to be offering to the members of a union (?), I think I realise it is written to keep the will legally valid and not partially intestate, regardless of what might happen after it is signed.
    It just spells out that while the executors are controlling the estate it is a trust and it spells out what is to happen if a couple die at the same time [they don't the elder one dies first] by introducing a 28 day cooling off period.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simultaneous_death

    Is the will you are handling intended to name all the beneficiaries from the date of death and the intention is not to create long term trusts or even protect the survivors share of the family wealth against excessive care costs, dementia problems etc.?

    So it is not a discretionary or interest in possession (life interest) trust ?
    Was the will written before 2006 (taxation of trusts) or 2007 (transferable nil rate band)?
    You might want to take advice on changing it using a deed of variation/family arrangement, if the effected beneficiaries agree it could be improved?

    http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/cto/customerguide/page21.htm
    http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/ihtmanual/ihtm16110.htm

    Looks like HMRC are prepared to substitute a more generous 6 months (ie until the IHT is due)

    IHTM16110 - Settled property: survivorship clauses in a will

    Clauses in wills providing that the beneficiary will inherit only ‘if he survives me for 28 days etc.’ are very common.
    IHTA84/S92 seeks to simplify the results of such clauses by providing that if the person survives then their benefit takes effect from the date of death. If they don’t survive then the interest of the person who takes the benefit also takes effect from the death.
    The aim is to do away with any consideration of the trusts on which the property or its income is held during the waiting period.
    The effect of S92 is that if under a will or settlement property is held for any person on condition that they survive a specified person for a period not exceeding six months, any trusts during the specified period are disregarded, and the dispositions which actually take effect at the end of the specified period are treated as having done so immediately on death.
This discussion has been closed.
Meet your Ambassadors

Categories

  • All Categories
  • 8 Election 2024: The MSE Leaders' Debate
  • 343.9K Banking & Borrowing
  • 250.3K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
  • 450K Spending & Discounts
  • 236K Work, Benefits & Business
  • 609.2K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
  • 173.4K Life & Family
  • 248.6K Travel & Transport
  • 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
  • 15.9K Discuss & Feedback
  • 15.1K Coronavirus Support Boards