SA tax return for 2010-2011, but no utr!

Kerensa · 19 January 2012 at 9:14PM

Hi,

Just wondered what to do. Having not done a tax return before, I did not realise I had to get a UTR no before 5 Oct 2011. Having rung the HRMC to obtain one, I was told that it would only come around 17 Feb! This is for renting out a property.

So, it looks like I'll be penalised. However, is it advisable to pay the tax due by 31 Jan without the UTR no (however linking my NI no) and overpay a little, even though I'll still have to pay a penalty?

Many thanks!

System · 19 January 2012 at 9:49PM

You can set aside the amount you think you might owe and pay it when the UTR is received. Then you should get your 10/11 tax return in asap assuming you had rental profit in the 10/11 tax year.

BoGoF · 19 January 2012 at 9:52PM

Pam17 wrote: »

You can set aside the amount you think you might owe and pay it when the UTR is received. Then you should get your 10/11 tax return in asap assuming you had rental profit in the 10/11 tax year.

Given that the UTR might not be here anytime soon and the new penalty regime/surcharge regime I would say they just send the cheque in before 31 January. That way there can be no futher interest or surcharge but still perhaps facing a £100 penalty.

chrismac1 · 19 January 2012 at 10:09PM

If you were my client I would be fighting any penalty. Regardless of HMRC "procedures" and whatever else, out in the real world getting a new account number set up within 24 hours is normal, even banks can normally manage it within a week or so. So if you rang them today that means you get your UTR by Thursday 26th at the latest from any half-decent business (which I accept does not apply to HMRC) meaning you can file in plenty of time no problem.

I strongly recommend making a note of the name and tax office of the person you spoke to, date and time of the call, exact phone number you dialled. They hate it when you quote this stuff at them when they're trying to hit you with an unfair penalty!

suso · 19 January 2012 at 11:11PM

HMRC are right in that you should have notified them by 5th October.

Regardless of the pointless rant from chrismac, you will not receive the UTR by the 31st Jan, however once the UTR is set up and the return has been issued, then you will have 3 months from the date that the return is issued in order to complete it, so the filing deadline for completing the return of 31st January will not apply.

The deadline for paying the tax is still however the 31st of January, and there is a widely known way of paying the tax without a UTR number.

on the HMRC website, search for a form called SA361, it will give you a pdf document, which is a glorified payslip, enter your national insurance number, the amount of tax to pay, and the tax year it is for, and a couple of other bits of info, and print it off. post it into the address on the form and the payment will be attached to your national insurance number, paye record.

Once the UTR has been issued, complete the return, phone HMRC and ask them to transfer the payment from the PAYE record to your self assessment record, which they will do and the payment date will be the date HMRC received the cheque. so as long as it is received before the 31st January and it is for the right amount, no penalties, interest or surcharges.

Sally_A · 19 January 2012 at 11:24PM

Also Karensa, you will need a Gateway password to file it online.

I think in the reminder I was sent they suggested this may take a week if I'd lost my previous password, unsure how long for setting up a new one.

Good luck - I hate the stress of Self Assessment, and keep putting it off, but it feels really good when you've done it.

Mikeyorks · 19 January 2012 at 11:27PM

suso wrote:

HMRC are right in that you should have notified them by 5th October.

Excellent response - in every respect.

For the OP :

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/payinghmrc/payslip-sa.htm

(ignore the preamble regarding paying electronically. For this to work it has to go via cheque to the address shown)

chrismac1 · 20 January 2012 at 7:16AM

Not necessarily a pointless rant. On another tax - PAYE - it is routine for HMRC processes to be so slow that it takes 4 months for them to issue penalties for late filing of end of year returns. The relevance of this is that if their systems were efficient the notice would come out in May with £100 on it. Instead it arrives in August or September with £400 on it. There have been a couple of folk who've challenged this and had these fines wiped. So I would be challenging any fine for this so-called late filing taxpayer using exactly the same logic. In other words, it is only the pathetically slow HMRC systems that have led to any £100 fine if it should come so having created these silly sytems HMRC cannot then have their cake and eat it by fining people for late filing when most of the delay is theirs. The timeline is critical - in the PAYE cases the busineses concerned put things right immediately. So in this case let's say the OP ends up filing the return on 17 Feb and the HMRC system delivers the UTR on 16 Feb. The time taken to file from original notification to HMRC is then 30 days. Of this 29 days was down to HMRC and 1 day was down to the taxpayer. So if we pro-rata the £100 fine, the taxpayer should pay £3.33 and HMRC needs to fine itself £96.67 for having rubbish systems with no "fast track" option for urgent cases like this one.

dori2o · 20 January 2012 at 9:18AM

chrismac1 wrote: »

Not necessarily a pointless rant. On another tax - PAYE - it is routine for HMRC processes to be so slow that it takes 4 months for them to issue penalties for late filing of end of year returns. The relevance of this is that if their systems were efficient the notice would come out in May with £100 on it. Instead it arrives in August or September with £400 on it. There have been a couple of folk who've challenged this and had these fines wiped. So I would be challenging any fine for this so-called late filing taxpayer using exactly the same logic. In other words, it is only the pathetically slow HMRC systems that have led to any £100 fine if it should come so having created these silly sytems HMRC cannot then have their cake and eat it by fining people for late filing when most of the delay is theirs. The timeline is critical - in the PAYE cases the busineses concerned put things right immediately. So in this case let's say the OP ends up filing the return on 17 Feb and the HMRC system delivers the UTR on 16 Feb. The time taken to file from original notification to HMRC is then 30 days. Of this 29 days was down to HMRC and 1 day was down to the taxpayer. So if we pro-rata the £100 fine, the taxpayer should pay £3.33 and HMRC needs to fine itself £96.67 for having rubbish systems with no "fast track" option for urgent cases like this one.

But there won't be a penalty for late filing at 31/01/2012 will there.

I swear to god your either completely thick or just a WUM.

IF you are an accountant you know full well that despite this being a FTN case the OP will get 3 months from the issue date of the return to complete it. As long as any tax due is paid before 31/01/2012 there will be no interest charge or further late payment penalties..

As for Employers end of year returns, why should it matter when the penalty notices are issued. Employers know full well what the filing dates are and the penalties for missing these dates.

Why should a penalty notice be issued at the end of May? Simply to act as a reminder?

If the penalty issued in August/September is £300/£400 then obviously the employer is 3/4 months late with the return. I see no problem with this. The employer has failed to abide by the regulations set and so must face the penalty.

As for claiming HMRC should have a fast track system for 'cases like this' which I assume means cases where the taxpayer is registering so close to the deadline, please enlighten us as to why that should be the case.

The OP has had plenty of time to notify HMRC, in fact they have had at least 8 months to do so. Why should they be offered special treatment and have their request fast tracked simply because they couldn't be arsed to reguister at the time the income started, or at least before 05/10/2011, there wouldn't then be this situation.

Personally, if it was down to me in FTN cases I wouldn't give the 3 months from date of issue. I see no reason why this concession should be given for someone who has, possibly intentionally, left it til now to noftify HMRC that they have another source of income.

chrismac1 · 20 January 2012 at 10:29AM

Simple dori2o. All I ask is that HMRC set up their systems to the normal business standards of the 21st Century and not the 19th. If accountants and taxpayers have 31 days to appeal a penalty I see no reason why 31 days is not sufficient for HMRC, for example. Luckily for taxpayers people who sit on Tribunals and Treasury select committees don't share your views that continuing to uphold rubbish processes and interminable delays over doing simple things is acceptable.

BoGoF · 20 January 2012 at 10:29AM

Totally agree dori2o.

I actually posted a reply to this thread after the crazy man's original rant but then deleted it. I've taken a decision not to contribute where he says "one of my clients blah blah" or "get their name etc".

Which is a shame since some of the "advice" given by him is factually incorrect. There is one thread in particular that I will check on to see how it pans out, if people are paying for advice like that then god help them.

SA tax return for 2010-2011, but no utr!

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