Main site > MoneySavingExpert.com Forums > Who & Where are You? > Over 50s Money Saving > Putting home into family trust to avoid nursing h... (Page 1)

IMPORTANT! This is MoneySavingExpert's open forum - anyone can post

Please exercise caution & report any spam, illegal, offensive, racist, libellous post to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com

  • Be nice to all MoneySavers
  • All the best tips go in the MoneySavingExpert weekly email

    Plus all the new guides, deals & loopholes

  • No spam/referral links
or Login with Facebook
Putting home into family trust to avoid nursing home fees
Reply
Views: 55,959
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
# 1
Veryannoyed
Old 15-12-2011, 9:23 AM
MoneySaving Convert
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 37
Default Putting home into family trust to avoid nursing home fees

I'm afraid I'm not prepared to lose my only asset, my home, to pay nursing home fees so I'm considering putting it into a family trust with my children as the beneficiaries.

Does anyone have experience of this and the pitfalls?

We're already likely to lose my mother's home for this reason (her fees are £46,000 a year) and if there is a legal way of making sure our children inherit all we have worked so hard for over the years then we will take it.

The PCT / social services have been entirely ruthless in the way they have dealt with the family over my mother's case and although we did achieve full funding for her for a while it was quickly removed.

I'm going to be equally ruthless in preventing them from getting their hands on my hard earned cash.
Veryannoyed is offline
Reply With Quote Report Post
The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Veryannoyed For This Useful Post: Show me >>
# 2
alanq
Old 15-12-2011, 11:36 AM
Fantastically Fervent MoneySaving Super Fan
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,753
Default

So you'd rather try to spend other persons' hard earned cash instead?

If it looks like the trust has been set up for the purpose of avoiding fees it may be treated as deprivation of assets.
http://www.ageuk.org.uk/Documents/EN...vision_fcs.pdf

Having put your home into trust what happens if you want to sell it and the beneficiaries of the trust don't want you to do so?
alanq is offline
Reply With Quote Report Post
The Following 18 Users Say Thank You to alanq For This Useful Post: Show me >>
# 3
dzug1
Old 15-12-2011, 1:08 PM
Deliciously Dedicated Diehard MoneySaving Devotee
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 12,477
Default

Trusts are a can of worms - they can be expensive to set up, expensive to run and have unexpected tax implications.

And do you really want to live in the cheapest of cheap homes coz that's all you'll get?

If you do decide to do this you'll need to go into it in fine detail - who are the trustees, who has the right to live there, who is responsible for maintenance, who sorts things out if they don't/can't bother, how will the trust be wound up and probably several dozen other questions
dzug1 is online now
Reply With Quote Report Post
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to dzug1 For This Useful Post: Show me >>
# 4
roddydogs
Old 15-12-2011, 1:43 PM
Fantastically Fervent MoneySaving Super Fan
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,080
Default

The old threads are the best.
roddydogs is offline
Reply With Quote Report Post
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to roddydogs For This Useful Post: Show me >>
# 5
midnight express
Old 15-12-2011, 4:07 PM
Serious MoneySaving Fan
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 940
Default

What you are suggesting is fraud ie a criminal offence. If set up a trust in order to claim benefit / care home fees you will be treated as if you still have the money.
midnight express is offline
Reply With Quote Report Post
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to midnight express For This Useful Post: Show me >>
# 6
esuhl
Old 15-12-2011, 4:42 PM
Fantastically Fervent MoneySaving Super Fan
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,538
Default

I vaguely remember reading about this a while back. I'm not 100% sure, but I seem to remember that if you could be pursued for care fees if the asset is transferred within six years of your admission to the care home so long as you didn't do this to intentionally avoid fees.

But if you have committed the thought-crime of trying to avoid nursing care fees, the authorities can bill you.

If my memory is correct, this creates a strange Orwellian and Catch-22-type paradox where what is criminal is the thought not the actions, and the law is different depending on your knowledge. The more you know about what is legal, the less is legal.

If you know how the law works and are trying to avoid paying fees, you will have to pay them. If you don't know what you're doing and transfer assets for other reasons, you can avoid the fees. It's one rule for the educated and one for the ignorant. It's the opposite of saying "ignorance is no defence".
esuhl is offline
Reply With Quote Report Post
The Following User Says Thank You to esuhl For This Useful Post: Show me >>
# 7
NAR
Old 15-12-2011, 5:37 PM
Fantastically Fervent MoneySaving Super Fan
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bangor
Posts: 4,680
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veryannoyed View Post
I'm afraid I'm not prepared to lose my only asset, my home, to pay nursing home fees .
And I'm afraid you will have no choice in the matter!
NAR is offline
Reply With Quote Report Post
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to NAR For This Useful Post: Show me >>
# 8
McKneff
Old 15-12-2011, 5:42 PM
Deliciously Dedicated Diehard MoneySaving Devotee
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: north yorkshire
Posts: 31,538
Default

Go and see a solicitor, they will give you the advice you need.

I saw something on these boards not too long since that only about 1 in ten people who own their homes end in care and even less
have to actually sell their homes, depending on the care that they need, whether the spouse still resides in the house, etc.
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent
McKneff is offline
Reply With Quote Report Post
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to McKneff For This Useful Post: Show me >>
# 9
Veryannoyed
Old 15-12-2011, 5:51 PM
MoneySaving Convert
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 37
Default

Thanks to the people who have made helpful replies, I'm going to contact a solicitor.

To the others, my mother is clearly entitled to fully funded care, but despite a four year battle involving solicitors we still can't get it so as we'll be paying over her entire assets (around £300,000) for care home fees at £46,800 a year then no, I certainly don't have any scruples about trying to save my own home.

At the moment I'm funding every lazy individual and their numerous kids who are living on benefits as a lifestyle choice so it's up to me what I do with my own money. Of course, when they need care in old age, the state (ie my taxes) will pay for that too.
Veryannoyed is offline
Reply With Quote Report Post
The Following 21 Users Say Thank You to Veryannoyed For This Useful Post: Show me >>
# 10
Happychappy
Old 15-12-2011, 6:14 PM
Fantastically Fervent MoneySaving Super Fan
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,227
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veryannoyed View Post
Thanks to the people who have made helpful replies, I'm going to contact a solicitor.

To the others, my mother is clearly entitled to fully funded care, but despite a four year battle involving solicitors we still can't get it so as we'll be paying over her entire assets (around £300,000) for care home fees at £46,800 a year then no, I certainly don't have any scruples about trying to save my own home.

At the moment I'm funding every lazy individual and their numerous kids who are living on benefits as a lifestyle choice so it's up to me what I do with my own money. Of course, when they need care in old age, the state (ie my taxes) will pay for that too.
Please post how you get on? I am also interested as I have the same views about the scroungers and dossers, of which there are countless, I totally agree your home should not be used, but would be interested to see how or if it can be done? maybe become an MP and claim it on expenses
Happychappy is offline
Reply With Quote Report Post
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to Happychappy For This Useful Post: Show me >>
# 11
McKneff
Old 15-12-2011, 6:37 PM
Deliciously Dedicated Diehard MoneySaving Devotee
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: north yorkshire
Posts: 31,538
Default

Around 10 years ago we had our house changed from joint tennants (where you both own the whole house) to tennants in common (where you each own a half of the house each) meaning that if I die I can will my half to the children. If my OH later on has to have care then they cant actually sell the house because he only owns half. And vice versa. It was put into trust at the same time and the children and the remaining spouse are the executors.

Solicitor route is best.
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent
McKneff is offline
Reply With Quote Report Post
The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to McKneff For This Useful Post: Show me >>
# 12
Veryannoyed
Old 15-12-2011, 7:13 PM
MoneySaving Convert
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 37
Default

I'll report back on how I get on. I'm not sure how we own the property at the moment but like McKneff I have also heard of being tenants in common and this sounds like a suitable option.

I'm sorry if anyone thinks trying to pass my home on to my children is evading my 'dues' to the state but my mother paid taxes all her life, my father was an army officer who bought his home out of taxed income and I don't see why, when they have never taken a penny from the state except in a small state pension, all their assets should be taken away when other people who have spent all their money get the same care for nothing. It's not going to happen to me if there is any legal way to stop it.
Veryannoyed is offline
Reply With Quote Report Post
The Following 20 Users Say Thank You to Veryannoyed For This Useful Post: Show me >>
# 13
pollypenny
Old 15-12-2011, 9:37 PM
Deliciously Dedicated Diehard MoneySaving Devotee
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: In a daydream!!
Posts: 12,609
Default

Bully for your parents, OP. Do you think other people are given their houses?

My parents bought the house in which we grew up, he was self-funding in a residential home, paying from pensions and capital.

He didn't ask anyone else to pay for him. If I need to go into a home I won't ask anyone else to pay.

And I don't want to pay for you.
Member #14 of SKI-ers club

Words, words, they're all we have to go by!.

(Pity they are mangled by this autocorrect!)
pollypenny is offline
Reply With Quote Report Post
The Following 24 Users Say Thank You to pollypenny For This Useful Post: Show me >>
# 14
Veryannoyed
Old 15-12-2011, 10:05 PM
MoneySaving Convert
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 37
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pollypenny View Post
Bully for your parents, OP. Do you think other people are given their houses?

My parents bought the house in which we grew up, he was self-funding in a residential home, paying from pensions and capital.

He didn't ask anyone else to pay for him. If I need to go into a home I won't ask anyone else to pay.

And I don't want to pay for you.
Do you like paying for the lazy lifestyle choice of the sort of people I had the misfortune to catch on the Jeremy Kyle show this morning?

Personally, I find that a lot more objectionable than the state funding the nursing home fees of a war hero's widow.
Veryannoyed is offline
Reply With Quote Report Post
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Veryannoyed For This Useful Post: Show me >>
# 15
Errata
Old 15-12-2011, 10:26 PM
Deliciously Dedicated Diehard MoneySaving Devotee
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 31,773
Default

Speaking as the daughter of a war hero and the stepdaughter of another whose mother sat on the dockside in the freezing cold and rain mending anti submarine nets and whose aunt worked in a munitions factory. I know ALL of them would be humiliated expecting the state to pay for their care because their relatives wouldn't look after them, when they were perfectly able to pay for it themselves, which two of them did.
It's called accepting responsibility.
.....................I'm smiling because I have no idea what's going on ...
Errata is online now
Reply With Quote Report Post
The Following 23 Users Say Thank You to Errata For This Useful Post: Show me >>
# 16
Moody Mare
Old 15-12-2011, 10:50 PM
MoneySaving Convert
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 109
Default

his written wishes is that he would rather see his home blown up that go to keep him. I will not follow his last wish but I will try to protect it through the courts.
Returning member as system did not know me anymore

Last edited by Moody Mare; Yesterday at 1:00 AM.
Moody Mare is offline
Reply With Quote Report Post
The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Moody Mare For This Useful Post: Show me >>
# 17
Veryannoyed
Old 15-12-2011, 11:01 PM
MoneySaving Convert
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 37
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Errata View Post
Speaking as the daughter of a war hero and the stepdaughter of another whose mother sat on the dockside in the freezing cold and rain mending anti submarine nets and whose aunt worked in a munitions factory. I know ALL of them would be humiliated expecting the state to pay for their care because their relatives wouldn't look after them, when they were perfectly able to pay for it themselves, which two of them did.
It's called accepting responsibility.
No sympathy needed for me or my relatives.

I certainly won't feel humiliated when I pass on my home to my children!
Veryannoyed is offline
Reply With Quote Report Post
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Veryannoyed For This Useful Post: Show me >>
# 18
Veryannoyed
Old 15-12-2011, 11:03 PM
MoneySaving Convert
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 37
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pollypenny View Post
Bully for your parents, OP. Do you think other people are given their houses?

My parents bought the house in which we grew up, he was self-funding in a residential home, paying from pensions and capital.

He didn't ask anyone else to pay for him. If I need to go into a home I won't ask anyone else to pay.

And I don't want to pay for you.
But you're happy to pay for people who choose not to work and to take from the state without paying anything in?
Veryannoyed is offline
Reply With Quote Report Post
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to Veryannoyed For This Useful Post: Show me >>
# 19
IanManc
Old 15-12-2011, 11:11 PM
MoneySaving Convert
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 149
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veryannoyed View Post
I'm not sure how we own the property at the moment but like McKneff I have also heard of being tenants in common and this sounds like a suitable option.
No it isn't. It's a legal minefield.

If half the house is owned by the children then that half is part of their assets. The house could be subject to a forced sale if one became bankrupt, and it counts towards their assets if one divorces. If they don't live there then the children pay capital gains tax on their share when the house is eventually sold. If the spouse who still owns half goes into a home and the house isn't sold at that point then the council simply place a legal charge on the property for the care fees they've paid, and recover the money from the proceeds of sale when the house is eventually sold. Meanwhile the children have to maintain an empty house ....... or if one of them lives in it then they either have to pay rent to the parent in the care home who who owns half the house, which the council will use to pay the care fees, or the council will simply assume that rent is being paid and stop paying a portion of the fees to the home that is equal to the "notional" rent and if you don't like it they'll let you take them to court - where they'd probably win.

And those are just the obvious pitfalls .......

Ther really isn't an effective way of the last remaining spouse avoiding the sale of the home to pay care fees. If there was an effective method then the government would legislate to stop it - but they haven't done because a foolproof method doesn't exist.

Apart from that, less than one in ten homeowners end up in care homes anyway, so it is daft to deprive yourself of ownership of your home when there's at least a 90% chance you'll live in it until you die.

Last edited by IanManc; 15-12-2011 at 11:14 PM.
IanManc is offline
Reply With Quote Report Post
The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to IanManc For This Useful Post: Show me >>
# 20
Oldernotwiser
Old 15-12-2011, 11:31 PM
PPR
Deliciously Dedicated Diehard MoneySaving Devotee
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,650
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veryannoyed View Post
I'm sorry if anyone thinks trying to pass my home on to my children is evading my 'dues' to the state but my mother paid taxes all her life, my father was an army officer who bought his home out of taxed income and I don't see why, when they have never taken a penny from the state except in a small state pension, all their assets should be taken away when other people who have spent all their money get the same care for nothing. It's not going to happen to me if there is any legal way to stop it.
No Family Allowance, no state pension, no Attendance Allowance?

Pretty unusual, I think.
Oldernotwiser is offline
Reply With Quote Report Post
The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Oldernotwiser For This Useful Post: Show me >>
Reply

Bookmarks
 
 




Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

 Forum Jump  

Contact Us - MoneySavingExpert.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:26 PM.

 Forum Jump  

Free MoneySaving Email

Top deals: Week of 16 July 2014

Get all this & more in MoneySavingExpert's weekly email full of guides, vouchers and Deals

GET THIS FREE WEEKLY EMAIL Full of deals, guides & it's spam free

Latest News & Blogs

Martin's Twitter Feed

profile
  • If you see 'representative' before APR it means only 51% of accepted applicants need get the advertised rate, others far more #jargonbuster
  • Starter for ten. Why after 30yrs on TV doesn't Paxo realise close striped jackets strobe? (were they too scared to tell him) #unichallenge
  • Just to say its specifically feedback on the new Ukash card (which has the tops rates) not prepaid cards in general im looking for :)

Cheap Travel Money

Find the best online rate for holiday cash with MSE's TravelMoneyMax.

Find the best online rate for your holiday cash with MoneySavingExpert's TravelMoneyMax.

TuneChecker Top Albums

  • VARIOUS ARTISTSNOW THAT'S WHAT I CALL MUSIC! 88
  • COURTEENERSHOW GOOD IT WAS
  • ED SHEERANX (DELUXE EDITION)

MSE's Twitter Feed

profile
Always remember anyone can post on the MSE forums, so it can be very different from our opinion.
We use Skimlinks and other affiliated links in some of our boards, for some of our users.