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Energy Saving Trust Q&A Centre
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# 1
MSE Andrea
Old 17-11-2010, 3:14 PM
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Default Energy Saving Trust Q&A Centre

Hi everyone

We're giving the Energy Saving Trust this thread so that anyone having questions they'd like to ask about saving energy and renewables can do so.

Obviously the Energy Saving Trust representatives won't be online 24/7 so won't always be able to reply straight away but they'll try to reply as soon as they can.

They'll have official representative status from us (their username will be purple) and the official signature so you'll they are who they say they are.

As usual if you feel something's been posted on this thread that we need to be aware of please email abuse@moneysavingexpert.com.

Andrea


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Last edited by MSE Andrea; 17-11-2010 at 3:16 PM.
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# 2
Energy Saving Trust company representative
Old 30-11-2010, 11:40 AM
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Default Ask a question about energy saving products.

Have you got any questions about energy saving products and how they can stop you wasting energy?

Well, you've come to the right place, our product experts from the Energy Saving Trust are here to answer any questions you may have. Simply post your question below.
Official Company Representative
I am the official company representative of Energy Saving Trust. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
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# 3
Edale
Old 30-11-2010, 12:53 PM
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Hi
Do you have any information as to when the renewable heat incentive levels are going to be confirmed, I had read somewhere they were going to be announced before the end of November. I am considering replacing my 20+ year old oil boiler with an ASHP and it would be good to know the level of support before I make the decision.
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# 4
Cardew
Old 30-11-2010, 12:56 PM
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A question about silver foil products put behind radiators.

As you are probably aware there are manufacturers making outrageous claims on the savings these products can give e.g. 20%.

I have rung EST twice(last time 15 Nov 2010) to be told that EST have not tested these panels and have no information on these products.

I have since found that in your business section you do have information:

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/...adiator-panels

It states:

Quote:
Description
Reflective material installed behind radiators to reduce heat loss through external walls. Rolls of foam ~3mm thick with a metallic film are available in DIY outlets, or more rigid profiled units are available from manufacturers.

Unit cost of installation
Typically panels cost approximately £3 - £4 each.

Bulk cost of installation
Data not available.

Indicative energy cost and carbon emissions

£ saving a year £5 to £25

kgC/yr saving 15 to 35



Maintenance
None normally required.

Technical suitability
The rolls of thin foam with a metallic coating need to be fitted with the radiator off the wall. The more rigid profiled variety can be fitted with the radiator in-situ. The panels are most effective when fitted behind radiators that are mounted on un-insulated external walls.

Non-technical constraints
No specific issues.

Potential concerns with fuel poor
None.

Ancillary benefits
None.

Trigger points for work
Work to the central heating system or decoration.

Performance Limitations
None.
I have scoured the internet and can find no tests at all that demonstrate any savings.

Can you please give the reference of any tests carries out, or give a technical explanation how you have reached your conclusions please?
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# 5
Energy Saving Trust company representative
Old 30-11-2010, 2:19 PM
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Hello,

In response to the question on the Renewable Heat Incentive, they have confirmed that it will take place from June 2011 but unfortunately we don’t as yet know the structure and exact date. Our best advice would be to check the DECC website to keep updated. http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cm...s/rhi/rhi.aspx

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Last edited by Energy Saving Trust company representative; 30-11-2010 at 2:28 PM.
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# 6
Energy Saving Trust company representative
Old 30-11-2010, 3:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardew View Post
A question about silver foil products put behind radiators.

As you are probably aware there are manufacturers making outrageous claims on the savings these products can give e.g. 20%.

I have rung EST twice(last time 15 Nov 2010) to be told that EST have not tested these panels and have no information on these products.

I have since found that in your business section you do have information:

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/...adiator-panels

It states:



I have scoured the internet and can find no tests at all that demonstrate any savings.

Can you please give the reference of any tests carries out, or give a technical explanation how you have reached your conclusions please?
Radiator reflector panels do generate a small saving. In a typical 3 bedroom semi detached gas heated home they can save around £6 and 30kg CO2 a year if professionally installed, whereas DIY installation would save around £3.50 and 18kg CO2 a year. Individually radiator panel reflectors save on average around £1 and 6kg CO2 per radiator as a DIY installation.

We calculate these savings by collating a number of sources. We use the CERT Technical Guidance to derive the average radiator panel saving from the two different installation types; we then apply average number of radiators for each house type which is sourced from the Building Research Establishment’s ‘Standard Dwellings for Energy Modelling’ (not publically available). We then applied our own calculated average prices sourced from Ofgem data (not publically available) and DEFRA’s GHG Conversion Factors to get financial and CO2 savings.

Hope this helps!
Official Company Representative
I am the official company representative of Energy Saving Trust. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
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# 7
Peter3
Old 30-11-2010, 5:07 PM
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Default Remote control of Central heating

Does anyone know of a low cost way of remotely switching on/off a central heating boiler via a mobile phone?

Like many people, I'm often away from home and the central heating is operated by a simple twice on, twice off each day timer. It means that I'm often heating an empty house.

I reckon if the government made all boiler controls have this facility, we would save more than all that fibre glass going into our lofts! Even if on average every household in the country switched off one day in 7, this would massively reduce our CO2 footprint and bills for very low cost.
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# 8
Jon Tiffany
Old 30-11-2010, 5:10 PM
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Energy Saving Trust company representative View Post
Radiator reflector panels do generate a small saving. In a typical 3 bedroom semi detached gas heated home they can save around £6 and 30kg CO2 a year if professionally installed, whereas DIY installation would save around £3.50 and 18kg CO2 a year. Individually radiator panel reflectors save on average around £1 and 6kg CO2 per radiator as a DIY installation.

We calculate these savings by collating a number of sources. We use the CERT Technical Guidance to derive the average radiator panel saving from the two different installation types; we then apply average number of radiators for each house type which is sourced from the Building Research Establishment’s ‘Standard Dwellings for Energy Modelling’ (not publically available). We then applied our own calculated average prices sourced from Ofgem data (not publically available) and DEFRA’s GHG Conversion Factors to get financial and CO2 savings.

Hope this helps!

I'm thinking of putting in some of these, but have a couple of questions:

There is a big difference in the saving between a DIY and professional installation, why is this?

My house has cavity wall insulation and is also dry lined, I assume this means the likely savings for me are even lower?
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# 9
Behemoth
Old 30-11-2010, 8:55 PM
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Default Solid wall insualation

Do you have any advice about insulating solid walled houses?

I have a 3-bed semi built 1935 which has solid (9") walls.

Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Energy Saving Trust company representative View Post
Have you got any questions about energy saving products and how they can stop you wasting energy?

Well, you've come to the right place, our product experts from the Energy Saving Trust are here to answer any questions you may have. Simply post your question below.
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# 10
Cardew
Old 30-11-2010, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Energy Saving Trust company representative View Post
Radiator reflector panels do generate a small saving. In a typical 3 bedroom semi detached gas heated home they can save around £6 and 30kg CO2 a year if professionally installed, whereas DIY installation would save around £3.50 and 18kg CO2 a year. Individually radiator panel reflectors save on average around £1 and 6kg CO2 per radiator as a DIY installation.

We calculate these savings by collating a number of sources. We use the CERT Technical Guidance to derive the average radiator panel saving from the two different installation types; we then apply average number of radiators for each house type which is sourced from the Building Research Establishment’s ‘Standard Dwellings for Energy Modelling’ (not publically available). We then applied our own calculated average prices sourced from Ofgem data (not publically available) and DEFRA’s GHG Conversion Factors to get financial and CO2 savings.

Hope this helps!
However from the CERT report you appear to have missed this most important caveat:


Quote:
1.78. A reduction in carbon emissions can only be awarded for the installation of radiator panels when they are fitted to external walls. Furthermore, research by the BRE indicates that an improvement in energy efficiency from an installation of radiator panels is minimal if the radiator is fitted on a wall with a filled cavity. Therefore, radiator panels should be installed on either solid walls or walls with unfilled cavities.
You have used the figures for CO2 reduction they quote and converted them to savings of £1 to £6 a year. However those savings only apply to houses with either solid walls or walls with unfilled cavities.

Given that the majority of house? in UK have cavity insulation, even those very low savings do not apply - in fact they are a waste of money(at any price) in a house with cavity insulation.

Your report does not make that clear.

Would you agree?
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# 11
Jon Tiffany
Old 01-12-2010, 8:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardew View Post

Given that the majority of house? in UK have cavity insulation, even those very low savings do not apply - in fact they are a waste of money(at any price) in a house with cavity insulation.
Thanks Cardew, I guess that answers my earlier question.

How about those devices that are supposed to increase the efficiency of the radiators? From what I can see they are some small fans that move extra air over the radiators, increasing the heat transfer. In theory I think they should work, but would love to know if any research has been carried out.
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# 12
Shinglekicker
Old 01-12-2010, 9:50 AM
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All well and good about the radiator panels, but can anyone tell me if the energy saving light bulbs are safe to use in rooms where original artwork/paintings/photographs are displayed?
I seem to remember seeing something about the energy saving ones causing fading in the same way as sunlight - something that the old style bulbs do not - but so far every representative of organisations promoting energy saving have ducked the issue when asked by me. If true it seems odd that the government, the EU, the manufacturers and all the organisations are promoting a product that will cause untold damage to the property of individuals, who may not realise until too late. And if it is true, why is the damage potential not more widely disseminated?
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# 13
Energy Saving Trust company representative
Old 01-12-2010, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Behemoth View Post
Do you have any advice about insulating solid walled houses?

I have a 3-bed semi built 1935 which has solid (9") walls.

Thanks
Hi Behemoth,

There are 2 types of insulation you can use on solid walls; internal and external.

Internal can be rigid boards or a flexible thermal lining that you apply to the inside walls of your home. Most types can be applied by yourself. Have a look at our database to find Energy Saving Trust Recommended products http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Find-Energy-Saving-Trust-Recommended-Products/browse/insulation/dry-lining;jsessionid=0c3e9e9f648697a107a800098818/?tc=mseforumestr

External covers the façade of your home so is most suitable if you are doing work to the outside of your home anyway. You may need planning permission so don’t forget to contact your local planning office to check. You’ll need to get a professional installer to help you with this; our advice centres can help you find one. Call 0800 512 012 to speak to your local centre. It does have the advantage that it won’t affect your every day life as it is installed. Energy Saving Trust Recommended products can be found here http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Find-Energy-Saving-Trust-Recommended-Products/browse/insulation/external-wall;jsessionid=1714715a0d372e316e760a66147e/?tc=mseforumestr

For more information on solid wall insulation we have a comprehensive guide on our website: http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Home-improvements-and-products/Home-insulation-glazing/Solid-wall-insulation/?tc=mseforumestr or call the advice line on 0800 512 012 and an advisor will be able to answer any further questions you have.
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I am the official company representative of Energy Saving Trust. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
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# 14
oldmanout
Old 01-12-2010, 1:00 PM
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I have a large old house which has had additional rooms build within the loft. I have placed rockwool insulation on top of the ceilings of these rooms but have not yet done anything with the walls. The walls of these rooms are stud partition with plywood on the outside and plasterboard on the inside. I wish to insulate these stud partition walls and think that the simplest solution may be to attach some form of insulation to the plywood exterior of the walls. It is protected form the weather as it is within the loft. Something soft or flexible would be easier to handle as I would be working within the confined spaces within the loft. What can you suggest?
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# 15
EnergyGuy
Old 01-12-2010, 2:34 PM
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To teh Energy Savings Trust -

I manage a 25 unit multifamily builidng with a gas boiler. I am looking at upgrading the boiler feed pumps. Currently I have 4 pumps. I have tracked the usage and I know they use 25,000 kwh during the winter. They must also pump during the summer - but that is only demand for residential hot water.

Have you evaluated upgrading to variable speed feed pumps?

During the summer, the building is using 8,000 kwh a month. How much of that do you think is boiler feed pumps?

What savings have you seen in th efield with new pumps?

Thanks,

Energy Guy
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# 16
Energy Saving Trust company representative
Old 01-12-2010, 3:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinglekicker View Post
All well and good about the radiator panels, but can anyone tell me if the energy saving light bulbs are safe to use in rooms where original artwork/paintings/photographs are displayed?
I seem to remember seeing something about the energy saving ones causing fading in the same way as sunlight - something that the old style bulbs do not - but so far every representative of organisations promoting energy saving have ducked the issue when asked by me. If true it seems odd that the government, the EU, the manufacturers and all the organisations are promoting a product that will cause untold damage to the property of individuals, who may not realise until too late. And if it is true, why is the damage potential not more widely disseminated?
Hi Shinglekicker

Fluorescent energy saving bulbs are known to emit a small amount of UV light, but we are unaware of any potential damaging effect they could have when illuminating artwork.

We would suggest that an energy saving halogen spotlight could be used, or one of the new LED products that are becoming much more widespread. These offer the same performance or better over traditional bulbs while consuming significantly less energy.


Check out our range of Energy Saving Trust Recommended lighting in the link below to see which bulbs are the most efficient and energy saving http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Find-Energy-Saving-Trust-Recommended-Products/browse/lighting/?tc=mseforumestr or call the advice line on 0800 512 012 and an advisor will be able to answer any further questions you have.

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I am the official company representative of Energy Saving Trust. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"

Last edited by Energy Saving Trust company representative; 01-12-2010 at 3:27 PM.
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# 17
Energy Saving Trust company representative
Old 01-12-2010, 4:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardew View Post
However from the CERT report you appear to have missed this most important caveat:




You have used the figures for CO2 reduction they quote and converted them to savings of £1 to £6 a year. However those savings only apply to houses with either solid walls or walls with unfilled cavities.

Given that the majority of house? in UK have cavity insulation, even those very low savings do not apply - in fact they are a waste of money(at any price) in a house with cavity insulation.

Your report does not make that clear.

Would you agree?
Thanks Cardew.

If radiator panels were fitted on filled cavity walls then the saving would be minimal as the cavity wall insulation would keep the heat in, as would the reflective panels, but in a more effective way. We do recommend first and foremost insulating your home's walls and loft as these measures have the greatest effect upon the insulation rates of your home. We do get enquiries relating to the savings of radiator panels specifically and we have calculated these savings to give an indication of the range that could be achieved. The data we currently use is the more robust source available but due to the downfalls you have pointed out , it should be regarded as a guide rather than highly accurate savings for those that relate to all household circumstances.

I hope this helps.
Official Company Representative
I am the official company representative of Energy Saving Trust. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
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# 18
Cardew
Old 01-12-2010, 5:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Energy Saving Trust company representative View Post
Thanks Cardew.

If radiator panels were fitted on filled cavity walls then the saving would be minimal as the cavity wall insulation would keep the heat in, as would the reflective panels, but in a more effective way. We do recommend first and foremost insulating your home's walls and loft as these measures have the greatest effect upon the insulation rates of your home. We do get enquiries relating to the savings of radiator panels specifically and we have calculated these savings to give an indication of the range that could be achieved. The data we currently use is the more robust source available but due to the downfalls you have pointed out , it should be regarded as a guide rather than highly accurate savings for those that relate to all household circumstances.

I hope this helps.
Thank you,

Personally I didn't need convincing that for the majority of houses these panels are a waste of money.

However there are many companies selling panels at high prices and with outrageous claims of savings and IMO the EST should state bluntly that with cavity wall insulation, any savings are negligble.

Last edited by Cardew; 01-12-2010 at 6:08 PM.
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# 19
Cardew
Old 02-12-2010, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CathyDebenham View Post
The detail is expected to be announced before Christmas, and it is expected that air source heat pumps for domestic use will be included from the beginning, although not for commercial use until 2012. There's an update by the chairman of the solar trade association following meetings with DECC on the yougen.co.uk site (I'm too new a user to post a link, but send me a message if you want the link)
Link is here:

http://www.yougen.co.uk/blog-entry/1...e+latest+news/

What does this mean?

Quote:
Air source heat pumps (ASHP) – there will be a tariff for the domestic sector. Non-domestic air source heat pumps will not be included in 2011. Air to water and air to air heat pumps (which are difficult to meter) will not be included initially.
No air to air or air to water?
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# 20
zeupater
Old 02-12-2010, 2:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Energy Saving Trust company representative View Post
Thanks Cardew.

If radiator panels were fitted on filled cavity walls then the saving would be minimal as the cavity wall insulation would keep the heat in, as would the reflective panels, but in a more effective way. We do recommend first and foremost insulating your home's walls and loft as these measures have the greatest effect upon the insulation rates of your home. We do get enquiries relating to the savings of radiator panels specifically and we have calculated these savings to give an indication of the range that could be achieved. The data we currently use is the more robust source available but due to the downfalls you have pointed out , it should be regarded as a guide rather than highly accurate savings for those that relate to all household circumstances.

I hope this helps.
Hi

On cavity filled walls I calculated my saving from reflective wall covering as being <£2/Year for the entire house (12 external wall radiators) ..... all internal wall radiators have no backing as the absorbed heat adds to the building's thermal mass ...

Perhaps details reflecting the updated information in your reply above could be included on the EST website .... I'd use the 'contact us' pane on the website to suggest this, however, every time I've used it in the past, the only return contact has been an automated reply saying that someone would contact within x working days ..... probably about a year since I last used it, still waiting ......
"We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
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