Employer possibly cancelling previously authorised holiday

sghughes42 · 9 June 2010 at 2:02PM

Apologies if this has already been covered - I have found another thread on here with a very similar subject but the answers given there and the information on the ACAS website (and elsewhere) do not seem to tie up clearly.

My girlfriend and I have managed to get tickets for the first week of Wimbledon, for Tuesday and Friday. We've booked a hotel through a website that offers good deals but as a result of which charges a cancellation fee.

She has two jobs for the same employer, one Monday and Tuesday, another at a different site Wednesday to Friday. The second job is at a place which is open Monday to Saturday.

She put in her holiday request in February and this was approved. It turned out that the person who works Monday and Tuesday has also requested that week off also and did so at pretty much the same time.

The person who works Saturdays said she could cover the Monday and Tuesday but didn't say anything about my partners holiday. However, as the manager approved it she assumed all was well.

However, today I got a call from her saying the person who works the Saturdays has left her a note saying that as she can't cover her holiday and that as they have an audit that week she might not be able to have her holiday after all. Now, as far as I can tell this person, while 'in charge' of this place is not a manager as such and has no actual say in things like holidays. The person who is definitely the boss and who the holiday was agreed with is away this week.

Of course, my girlfriend is now very worried that she won't be allowed to have the time off and we will in effect lose not only the holiday but the (significant, to us) cost of hotel, tickets and rail fare.

There seem to be two different schools of thought on whether this would be allowed. Some say that as she entered in to a contract with her manager to have the holiday off they cannot cancel this without consent from both sides. The 'official' guidelines say that the employer must give notice of the same length as the holiday but the wording here seems to suggest this is for the initial request - it is not clear in the context of changing a request already granted.

Not that she would really want to go down any official paths on this but she has been working less than a year which I think affects her rights regarding dismissal etc?

Also, if they are allowed to give notice to cancel, how does this work? For example, she only works W-F so do only W-F count as notice days or do M-F or even M-S as the place is open on Saturday count? As the boss isn't back in until next week, would notice given next Wednesday be enough - does the day it is given count as Day 1 or Day 0?

Hopefully this can all be resolved amicably but to try and reduce the stress levels I'd appreciate some advice to put her mind at rest or to give her the ability to deal with it properly, otherwise she'll be fretting until next week about it.

DVardysShadow · 9 June 2010 at 2:36PM

sghughes42 wrote: »

However, today I got a call from her saying the person who works the Saturdays has left her a note saying that as she can't cover her holiday and that as they have an audit that week she might not be able to have her holiday after all. Now, as far as I can tell this person, while 'in charge' of this place is not a manager as such and has no actual say in things like holidays. The person who is definitely the boss and who the holiday was agreed with is away this week.

Would like to see links to the conflicting advice you have, but if all the leave is signed off, then that should be the end of the matter.

It looks like a cheek on the part of the person leaving the note to say she might not be able to have her holiday - intended to bluff your gf into giving up her holiday [prerhaps to go to Wimbledon herself?]

I think your gf should just be saying 'Sorry, it is booked' and letting them sort the rest out themselves.

sghughes42 · 9 June 2010 at 2:53PM

This ACAS leaflet suggests the notice-as-holiday-length:

http://www.acas.org.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=955&p=0

This MSE forum post is one of a number I found suggesting an agreement was a contract:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=30219017

The google search which got the best results seemed to be for 'employer cancelling holiday at short notice'.

I don't know this other person myself but from what I have been told I get a funny feeling about her. Also, there have been two occasions we have been past on a Saturday when this place should have been open but the shutters were down and my GF hadn't been contacted asking if she could cover... As the boss doesn't work Saturdays they just have to text in to 'clock in'... (Not making an accusation as such here but if cover was needed then my GF is the nearest so...)

I have told her not to worry - it is their mess and up to them to get out of it.

DVardysShadow · 9 June 2010 at 3:43PM

I'm looking at ACAS, and it does not seem to answer the question.

The 'holiday as contract' idea is useful - but I think it has to be viewed as a theory rather than a legal principle.

Certainly the number of days holiday is part of the contract - and most if not all of those days will be by legal right. I would argue that by applying for and having approved a period of leave, those days are now written into the contract as much as starting and finishing times or working days. I think that the correct process for the employer to revoke them would actually be to invoke the ACAS procedure and give twice the period of the leave to be revoked in notice, allowing the employee to give counter notice of a least the length of the period to be revoked.

But this is just my take on it. However, it is plain that employees need to give good notice and employers need to decide promptly, so that employees can make plans and spend money on holidays - basically, it is unacceptable for employers to cancel leave at short notice - or if they do, then the problem must be serious enough for them to recompense employees expenses without being asked.

Basically, gf needs to tell them it is too late, it has been approved and she is out of there for her booked leave. But not to be totally surprised if the non-manager tries to threaten.

sghughes42 · 9 June 2010 at 4:00PM

I agree it is not clear at all. On some other boards there seems to be a stance that while you have a right to x days holiday, you have no right to when they are taken. I suspect the manager will be sympathetic as he seems a nice enough bloke - he may even already have a plan to cover this for all we know! Would just be nice to find something definitive...

As for this non-manager, to be honest, my stance would be that the manager should be telling her when he wants her to cover rather than her saying 'I'll cover that but not this' - assuming she is available of course. He is in charge so he knows when he most needs cover...

DVardysShadow · 9 June 2010 at 4:10PM

sghughes42 wrote: »

I agree it is not clear at all. On some other boards there seems to be a stance that while you have a right to x days holiday, you have no right to when they are taken. I suspect the manager will be sympathetic as he seems a nice enough bloke - he may even already have a plan to cover this for all we know! Would just be nice to find something definitive...

The trouble is that there are more than a few facets to this. Often people get hung up on particular aspects, which are not necessarily directly relevant to the case in hand. The 'no right to when they are taken' idea is true enough when it comes to booking leave, but your gf's leave is agreed, so you are past that point.

sghughes42 · 9 June 2010 at 4:23PM

DVardysShadow wrote: »

The 'no right to when they are taken' idea is true enough when it comes to booking leave, but your gf's leave is agreed, so you are past that point.

I think that is the core of it really - I'd have thought that once booked it would be difficult to just 'pull the rug out' so to speak.

However, on other forums there are posts where people have been asked to come in when already on holiday as well as similar ones where they have been asked to cancel at stupidly short notice and the replies were along the lines of holiday is purely at the discretion of the company - in other words, any previous agreement can be overruled.

What is boils down to is that some people read the 'no right to when taken' to also cover pre booked holidays, others say notice on a 1:1 basis is allowable, others say that once booked you both have to agree to any variations... There does not seem to be anything on a .gov or similar website that actually says which applies...

I have suggested she check her contract to see if there is anything specific in that, however I must admit to having little faith in people who write contracts actually reading the law before they do so.

DVardysShadow · 9 June 2010 at 4:34PM

sghughes42 wrote: »

... What is boils down to is that some people read the 'no right to when taken' to also cover pre booked holidays, others say notice on a 1:1 basis is allowable, others say that once booked you both have to agree to any variations... There does not seem to be anything on a .gov or similar website that actually says which applies...

I have suggested she check her contract to see if there is anything specific in that, however I must admit to having little faith in people who write contracts actually reading the law before they do so.

Yes, that is exactly it, people do apply 'no right when taken' or 'taken at Company Discretion' right out of context. Once booked, the company has had its helping of discretion.

Now, I have no doubt that bullying Managers and Supervisors will attempt to use 'company Discretion' to renege on booked leave. But the most they can do is ask the employee to reconsider AFAICS - certainly the ACAS book does not even hint at a procedure to do this, so I doubt there is so much as a right for the employer here. If the employee has evidence that leave was agreed, even if they were threatened with a disciplinary on their return, I would say that very few companies would actually want this to go near an Employment Tribunal.

sghughes42 · 9 June 2010 at 4:38PM

DVardysShadow wrote: »

I would say that very few companies would actually want this to go near an Employment Tribunal.

Especially when the employer in question is the CAB...

Thanks, seems she can rest easy for now and if needs be face down her manager but I doubt it will come to that. They seem an easy going enough bunch in general, just this one woman seems odd at times...

:beer:

DVardysShadow · 9 June 2010 at 5:00PM

sghughes42 wrote: »

Especially when the employer in question is the CAB...

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

sghughes42 wrote: »

Thanks, seems she can rest easy for now and if needs be face down her manager but I doubt it will come to that. They seem an easy going enough bunch in general, just this one woman seems odd at times...

:beer:

Perhaps she needs to advise a new client with exactly this problem.

DCFC79 · 9 June 2010 at 6:28PM

Tell your gf to only deal with her manager and not the person who left the note. If the holiday has been signed off by the manager then surely its A OK

Employer possibly cancelling previously authorised holiday

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