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  • FIRST POST
    rashid
    Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a dropped footway
    • #1
    • 2nd Feb 10, 1:45 AM
    Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a dropped footway 2nd Feb 10 at 1:45 AM
    Hello friends,

    I have received a parking ticket from Sutton council of Ł100 pounds with a 50% concession if paid within 14 days, while parked outside my home on a road which has street parking.

    There is a sign which says controlled zone ends and apart from that there are no signs or lines whatsoever and people park where there is a space left. My car was parked on the left side where there is a dropped footpath and on left is a foot-way. Cyclists, buggies, wheelchair users and people on foot use it. My car was parked near there but the dropped footpath goes further ahead of my car and people do not have difficulty in going round the car including an cyclists etc.

    Furthermore everyone parks there including me and never got any tickets. I took pictures of my car as well as another car parks in same spot next day with had not been given any ticket.

    Also a fine of Ł100 is too steep anyway.
    I am happy to post the pics.
    Can someone help me?
    Thanks
    Rashid
Page 1
  • peter_the_piper
    • #2
    • 2nd Feb 10, 8:05 AM
    • #2
    • 2nd Feb 10, 8:05 AM
    Host on tinypic, put the url on here minus the http:// bit. Both sides of paperwork please.
    Millie due home in 5 weeks. Then she'll spend the summer holiday visiting friends she's not seen for 2 years. We may see her for a day or so.
  • TheBogsDollocks
    • #3
    • 13th Feb 10, 1:26 PM
    • #3
    • 13th Feb 10, 1:26 PM
    Include the following paragraphs in your appeal;

    “Council areas within Greater London that were awarded Special Parking Area status under section 76 of the Road Traffic Act 1991 are now considered, due to paragraph 1(5) of Schedule 10 within the TMA 2004, to be Special Enforcement Areas.

    However, such council areas are not considered as Special Enforcement Areas where Statutory Instrument 2009/1116 is concerned. Paragraph 2(5) of S.I. 2009/1116 does not include paragraph 1(5) of Schedule 10 within the TMA 2004, in its definition of Special Enforcement Areas.

    (5)In paragraph (4) a special enforcement area means an area designated as a special enforcement area by means of
    (a) an order made under paragraph 1(1) or 3(1) of Schedule 10 to the Traffic Management Act 2004; or
    (b)an order which, by virtue of paragraph 2(5) or 3(5) of that Schedule, has effect as if it were an order so made."

    Since S.I. 2009/1116 does not include those councils within Greater London that were granted Special Parking Area status under the 1991 Act, it means that those councils do not qualify as being exempt from having to place traffic signs for the purpose of providing information to road users as to the effect of section 85 or 86 of the Traffic Management Act 2004 in their area.

    As the prohibition was not signed and no exemption from placing traffic signs has been granted, I require you to cancel this penalty charge forthwith.
  • Coblcris
    • #4
    • 13th Feb 10, 2:40 PM
    • #4
    • 13th Feb 10, 2:40 PM
    Which contravention is alleged ?
  • Ian2709
    • #5
    • 28th Mar 10, 2:05 PM
    • #5
    • 28th Mar 10, 2:05 PM
    TheBogsDollocks, would that reply that you gave work in my case. I live in Waltham Forest, East London and by the sound of it, my partner was ticketed for virtually the same violation as rashid. There is no indication that it is a violation to park where she did. I have put together an appeal with photo evidence and if quoting those paragraphs will help I'll use them.

    Also do you know if there is a time bracket that wardens can issue tickets? she was given two, one at 19.42 and one at 06.32.
  • TheBogsDollocks
    • #6
    • 28th Mar 10, 5:49 PM
    • #6
    • 28th Mar 10, 5:49 PM
    TheBogsDollocks, would that reply that you gave work in my case. I live in Waltham Forest, East London and by the sound of it, my partner was ticketed for virtually the same violation as rashid. There is no indication that it is a violation to park where she did. I have put together an appeal with photo evidence and if quoting those paragraphs will help I'll use them.
    Originally posted by Ian2709
    Yes the argument is valid for any London Borough. This argument has been used a few times now with success. However, the argument tends only to be accepted once an appeal is set to go before an adjudicator when the council pull out. They would not like an adjudicator to validate my argument as that would prohibit the councils from enforcing dropped footways and double parking until the restriction is either signed or a signage exemption is granted via statute.
  • Coupon-mad
    • #7
    • 29th Mar 10, 12:11 AM
    • #7
    • 29th Mar 10, 12:11 AM
    TheBogsDollocks, would that reply that you gave work in my case. I live in Waltham Forest, East London and by the sound of it, my partner was ticketed for virtually the same violation as rashid. There is no indication that it is a violation to park where she did. I have put together an appeal with photo evidence and if quoting those paragraphs will help I'll use them.

    Also do you know if there is a time bracket that wardens can issue tickets? she was given two, one at 19.42 and one at 06.32.
    Originally posted by Ian2709


    There are guidelines that say that there is supposed to be 24 hours between PCNs, this has been mentioned before on pepipoo.com and if I were you I would start a new thread over there. Read the READ THIS FIRST sticky and then register and post your thread and images:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=30

    AFAIK there is nothing to suggest that the 24 hours ends at midnight (otherwise a CEO could issue a ticket at 11.55pm and another 6 minutes later for the same contravention). Obviously this would not be acceptable practice.

    Post on your new thread on pepipoo, pics of the front and back of both the PCNs and any letters received. Plus pics of the bay lines and signs, including the ends of the bay (are they double or single lines at either end and is the bay divided or one long continuous bay?). All that info should get you some helpful responses for wording your appeals to both PCNs.

    Include in both informal appeals, TheBogsDollocks' wording - and in the second PCN appeal include the fact that it's a procedural impropriety for a second PCN to be issued for the same contravention within 24 hours. Also include anything the pepipoo experts give you.

    Then I think the Council may see sense and cancel the second PCN (maybe!) but I expect they'll refuse the informal appeal on the first one as they rarely fold at that stage. You'll then have a formal appeal chance at NTO stage (pepipoo posters will advise further if you have a good case to continue).

    HTH
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 29-03-2010 at 12:13 AM.
    PCN in a private car park in England/Wales? DON'T PAY IT BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    USE THE 'FORUM JUMP' ON RIGHT, GO TO THE PARKING TICKETS FORUM. READ THE 'NEWBIES' THREAD.
    Do NOT read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

  • Coblcris
    • #8
    • 29th Mar 10, 9:05 AM
    • #8
    • 29th Mar 10, 9:05 AM
    The days do 'tick over' at midnight.
    Although issuance a few minutes before midnight and a few minutes after would be good grounds to contest that one of the PCNs should be dropped in this case the timings are not such in my opinion. Each will have to be contested on its merits.
  • roddydogs
    • #9
    • 29th Mar 10, 10:19 AM
    • #9
    • 29th Mar 10, 10:19 AM
    Blocking any part of a dropped kerb is a 24/7 offence, as is footpath parking, obstruction, etc. so the controlled zone is irellevant, as is the argument "Ive done it many times and not had a ticket/loads of people get away with it" type arguments.
  • flyingscotno1
    Include the following paragraphs in your appeal;

    “Council areas within Greater London that were awarded Special Parking Area status under section 76 of the Road Traffic Act 1991 are now considered, due to paragraph 1(5) of Schedule 10 within the TMA 2004, to be Special Enforcement Areas.

    However, such council areas are not considered as Special Enforcement Areas where Statutory Instrument 2009/1116 is concerned. Paragraph 2(5) of S.I. 2009/1116 does not include paragraph 1(5) of Schedule 10 within the TMA 2004, in its definition of Special Enforcement Areas.

    (5)In paragraph (4) a special enforcement area means an area designated as a special enforcement area by means of
    (a) an order made under paragraph 1(1) or 3(1) of Schedule 10 to the Traffic Management Act 2004; or
    (b)an order which, by virtue of paragraph 2(5) or 3(5) of that Schedule, has effect as if it were an order so made."

    Since S.I. 2009/1116 does not include those councils within Greater London that were granted Special Parking Area status under the 1991 Act, it means that those councils do not qualify as being exempt from having to place traffic signs for the purpose of providing information to road users as to the effect of section 85 or 86 of the Traffic Management Act 2004 in their area.

    As the prohibition was not signed and no exemption from placing traffic signs has been granted, I require you to cancel this penalty charge forthwith.
    Originally posted by TheBogsDollocks
    I had a look but I'm a bit confused by the argument here since Statutory Instrument 2009/1116 states "there is no requirement to place and maintain traffic signs to indicate the effect of sections 85 or 86 on roads in a special enforcement area".

    It also states that "(5) In paragraph (4) a “special enforcement area” means an area designated as a special enforcement area by means of—

    (a)an order made under paragraph 1(1) or 3(1) of Schedule 10 to the Traffic Management Act 2004(4); or

    (b)an order which, by virtue of paragraph 1(5) or 3(5) of that Schedule, has effect as if it were an order so made."


    Since it states 1(5) surely it applies or that this been amended?
  • roddydogs
    Their Dosent have to be any signs for blocking dropped kerbs! or Footpath Parking, or Obstruction. Think about it! every dropped kerb would need one!
  • Coblcris
    Which is why the argument used by TheBogsDollocks should be used.

    The lack of approved signage not has prevented councils from issuing PCNs in the past.
    Despite the councils and the Department of Transport being in full knowledge of the lacuna. In fact it has been hushed up in the past, again in full knowledge of the Councils and the Department of Transport. A sad commentary on the way parking enforcement operates.
  • ashirusnw
    Paragraph 2(5) of S.I. 2009/1116 does not include paragraph 1(5) of Schedule 10 within the TMA 2004, in its definition of Special Enforcement Areas.

    (5)In paragraph (4) a special enforcement area means an area designated as a special enforcement area by means of
    (a) an order made under paragraph 1(1) or 3(1) of Schedule 10 to the Traffic Management Act 2004; or
    (b)an order which, by virtue of paragraph 2(5) or 3(5) of that Schedule, has effect as if it were an order so made."
    Originally posted by TheBogsDollocks

    I think they may have updated the amendment to SI 2009/1116? It now reads:

    (5) In paragraph (4) a “special enforcement area” means an area designated as a special enforcement area by means of— (a)an order made under paragraph 1(1) or 3(1) of Schedule 10 to the Traffic Management Act 2004(2); or (b)an order which, by virtue of paragraph 1(5) or 3(5) of that Schedule, has effect as if it were an order so made.”
    And so appears to include paragraphs 1(5) Am I right? all the best, Asher
  • TheBogsDollocks
    Yes that's right, the loophole was closed by a correction slip issued in Feb 2010. I only became aware of the correction in April 2010. At least it showed my argument was correct prior to Feb 2010 and it helped cancel a few unlawful PCN's since March 2008. Closure of the loophole was inevitable.

    Oddly no councils in London have come publicly forward and admitted they served code 27 PCN's between March 2008 and Feb 2010 without the correct traffic signs being in place and announced that they intend to do the right thing and refund those who paid such PCN's. Why would this be do you think?
  • Coupon-mad
    ashirusnw, that doesn't mean there aren't grounds to win an appeal of a Council PCN though. There are plenty more errors made by Councils in their paperwork, procedures, lines and signs!

    Most cases on pepipoo forums still win, Councils will bluff and bluster, declining an appeal without properly considering it - and then they fold before they get to the adjudicator in too many cases to count. If you have a Council PCN please post pics of all sides of your paperwork on a new thread on pepipoo.com:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=30

    HTH
    PCN in a private car park in England/Wales? DON'T PAY IT BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    USE THE 'FORUM JUMP' ON RIGHT, GO TO THE PARKING TICKETS FORUM. READ THE 'NEWBIES' THREAD.
    Do NOT read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

  • JMcredit
    hi
    Has anyone yet won the appeal for PCN issued for code 27
    Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a dropped footway.
    I am issued with a same PCN y'day in croydon. I had parked the car next to an open field (mainly used for dog walking etc. I parked the park all properly however just the back side tyre is slightly out of the raised kerb area. Having said that my car didn't obstruct anyone as the lowered kerb( footpath ) is quite big and i was only slightly out from raised kerb. there was no sign or traffic notice to stop people parking from here. I couldn't move the car further up as there was another car parked nfront of mine. Before i parked my car , the space was used by someone else. people are regularly parking here.

    Is there any grounds for me to appeal against the ticket ....my car back wheel was only slightly out in dropped footway?

    Do I have any grounds where PCN observation time and time contravention had only minute difference.



    Best Regards
  • esmerobbo
    Providing the dropped kerb is a dropped kerb then they don't need any other signs or road markings, the dropped kerb is the marking!
    A photo of the kerb or street view location and post up both sides of your PCN personal details removed over on Pepipoo.
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