Main site > MoneySavingExpert.com Forums > Work & Benefits > Employment, Jobseeking & Training > Holiday pay - pro rate - based on contract or act... (Page 1)

IMPORTANT! This is MoneySavingExpert's open forum - anyone can post

Please exercise caution & report any spam, illegal, offensive, racist, libellous post to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com

  • Be nice to all MoneySavers
  • All the best tips go in the MoneySavingExpert weekly email

    Plus all the new guides, deals & loopholes

  • No spam/referral links
or Login with Facebook
Holiday pay - pro rate - based on contract or actual hours?
Closed Thread
Views: 4,072
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
# 1
oliverp
Old 28-09-2009, 11:06 PM
MoneySaving Convert
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 129
Default Holiday pay - pro rate - based on contract or actual hours?

Hi all,

I was wondering if you could help.

I work part time and as such have a 7 hour contract (weekly). However, I regularly work upto 28 hours a week. (4 days).

Obviously being part time, the holiday pay is pro-rata. However, they are using 7 hours as the calculation for the holiday pay. Considering I regularly work four times this, I find it pretty annoying.

There are quite a lot of us on these 7 hour contracts but doing a lot more hours. It seems like a bit of scam for them to give us low hour contracts and get away with giving us less holiday pay. Is this correct?

Thanks!
oliverp is offline
Report Post
# 2
juliescot
Old 28-09-2009, 11:09 PM
Serious MoneySaving Fan
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,246
Default

The holiday pay will be based on the contracted hours.

That is a massive amount of overtime and it may well be worth asking for a re-evaluation of your contract
juliescot is offline
Report Post
The Following User Says Thank You to juliescot For This Useful Post: Show me >>
# 3
liney
Old 29-09-2009, 6:18 PM
Fantastically Fervent MoneySaving Super Fan
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,788
Default

Contracted hours only, however you should only be booking off 7 hours for a week off work. This way you are not worse off.
"On behalf of teachers, I'd like to dedicate this award to Michael Gove and I mean dedicate in the Anglo Saxon sense which means insert roughly into the anus of." My hero, Mr Steer.
liney is offline
Report Post
# 4
LittleVoice
Old 29-09-2009, 8:47 PM
Fantastically Fervent MoneySaving Super Fan
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,060
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by liney View Post
Contracted hours only, however you should only be booking off 7 hours for a week off work. This way you are not worse off.
So a week of paid holiday amounting to 7 hours pay leaves you no worse off that a paid holiday amounting to 28 hours? I think not.
LittleVoice is offline
Report Post
# 5
PasturesNew
Old 29-09-2009, 8:49 PM
Deliciously Dedicated Diehard MoneySaving Devotee
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: SW UK
Posts: 49,193
Default

That'd be a way for companies to get round the holiday pay though, employ them on 0 hours contracts, or 1 hour contracts, then simply get them to do overtime. Instant 10% or so saving on wages - and associated NI costs.

So ... it doesn't sound like it could be right.
PasturesNew is offline
Report Post
# 6
LittleVoice
Old 29-09-2009, 9:12 PM
Fantastically Fervent MoneySaving Super Fan
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,060
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PasturesNew View Post
That'd be a way for companies to get round the holiday pay though, employ them on 0 hours contracts, or 1 hour contracts, then simply get them to do overtime. Instant 10% or so saving on wages - and associated NI costs.

So ... it doesn't sound like it could be right.
Unfortunately it is right - that holiday is related to contracted hours - and is a means by which an employer can avoid paying what in true fairness would be due.
LittleVoice is offline
Report Post
# 7
oliverp
Old 29-09-2009, 11:00 PM
MoneySaving Convert
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 129
Default

Thanks for the replies.

My contract has only just been renewed from temporary to permanent. The reason it is only 7 hours is so they can be flexible, one week it's busy, the next it is dead.

My previous job paid holiday pay directly linked to hours worked. It was a much better system. I'm still not convinced this is acceptable...but I don't know what I can do about it. Nothing?
oliverp is offline
Report Post
# 8
liney
Old 01-10-2009, 11:55 AM
Fantastically Fervent MoneySaving Super Fan
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,788
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleVoice View Post
So a week of paid holiday amounting to 7 hours pay leaves you no worse off that a paid holiday amounting to 28 hours? I think not.

No worse off, as in s/he recieves 5.6 x 7 hours holiday pay and still receives 5.6 weeks off work, not a week and abit because s/he has booked off the overtime they have been doing in order to take the time meaning they do not get the correct amount of time off work over the year.

Overtime, is overtime. S/he can refuse to do it, or the employer can withdraw it at anytime. If the OP wants a "bigger" contract they need to negotiate one, because until they have more official hours they are only being promised 7 hours a week's work, and therefore 5.6 x 7 hours per year holiday pay.

I feel there are two different issues.
"On behalf of teachers, I'd like to dedicate this award to Michael Gove and I mean dedicate in the Anglo Saxon sense which means insert roughly into the anus of." My hero, Mr Steer.
liney is offline
Report Post
# 9
Savvy_Sue
Old 02-10-2009, 1:09 AM
Deliciously Dedicated Diehard MoneySaving Devotee
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 34,026
Default

You could try to negotiate a contract which acknowledges the flexible nature of the work, and allows you to calculate your holiday entitlement based on the number of hours worked in the previous X weeks (not sure if it is 12 or 13). That's what should happen if your hours aren't fixed at all: as it is, you have 7 hours when you always do work.

There may be more information on the ACAS website.
I'm a Board Guide on the Cutting Tax; Charities; Small Biz & Charity Organisers; and Silver Savers boards, which means I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. However, do remember, Board Guides don't read every post. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com. It is not part of my role to deal with reportable posts.

Any views are mine and are not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com

New to the Forum? Why not watch the Guide?

Real Life is taking a lot more time than usual
Savvy_Sue is offline
Report Post
# 10
LittleVoice
Old 02-10-2009, 6:39 AM
Fantastically Fervent MoneySaving Super Fan
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,060
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savvy_Sue View Post
You could try to negotiate a contract which acknowledges the flexible nature of the work, and allows you to calculate your holiday entitlement based on the number of hours worked in the previous X weeks (not sure if it is 12 or 13). That's what should happen if your hours aren't fixed at all: as it is, you have 7 hours when you always do work.

There may be more information on the ACAS website.
Yes, Sue, it's 12 weeks - but you do not count any week when no paid work is done and instead move back one week and count that in.
LittleVoice is offline
Report Post
The Following User Says Thank You to LittleVoice For This Useful Post: Show me >>
# 11
liney
Old 02-10-2009, 7:55 AM
Fantastically Fervent MoneySaving Super Fan
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,788
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savvy_Sue View Post
You could try to negotiate a contract which acknowledges the flexible nature of the work, and allows you to calculate your holiday entitlement based on the number of hours worked in the previous X weeks (not sure if it is 12 or 13). That's what should happen if your hours aren't fixed at all: as it is, you have 7 hours when you always do work.

There may be more information on the ACAS website.
Then what happens when the OP comes to book holidays? Does he book only 7 hours, does he accept overtime then book it off too? Does he fiddle the system, refuse overtime that week, and effectively get more holidays in weeks than everyone else? Complications...
"On behalf of teachers, I'd like to dedicate this award to Michael Gove and I mean dedicate in the Anglo Saxon sense which means insert roughly into the anus of." My hero, Mr Steer.
liney is offline
Report Post
# 12
getmore4less
Old 02-10-2009, 9:09 AM
Deliciously Dedicated Diehard MoneySaving Devotee
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 19,416
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by liney View Post
Then what happens when the OP comes to book holidays? Does he book only 7 hours, does he accept overtime then book it off too? Does he fiddle the system, refuse overtime that week, and effectively get more holidays in weeks than everyone else? Complications...
I think the point of averaging out over the previous weeks i that hours don't matter

You book a day and get the days rate calculated on the average hours over the previous weeks

Definately worth looking at a more flexable contract with increased hours or one that pays based on hours worked.

If you don't work every day every week then they could probably just get the holiday pay paid.

My OH works a zero hours contract and the NHS pays the holiday on hours worked as you work them.


One other point since you are contracted to only work 7hours(one day?) then you should have total controll over the extra time and be able to work when you want, if the employer controls the days you work and does not give you the choice of not working any of the extra days then that probably makes them implied contractual hours anyway.(one for an employment expert, ACAS).
getmore4less is offline
Report Post
The Following User Says Thank You to getmore4less For This Useful Post: Show me >>
# 13
liney
Old 03-10-2009, 11:53 AM
Fantastically Fervent MoneySaving Super Fan
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,788
Default

[QUOTE=getmore4less;25608555]I think the point of averaging out over the previous weeks i that hours don't matter /[QUOTE]

So you tell the OP you have worked 15 hours on average over the past 12 weeks so if you want a week off you need to book 15 hours..... and he retorts "But i'm only contracted to 7 a week, so why should I book more!"

However, if you let him accrue at the "average" rate, but he only has to book at the 7 hours a week rate, he ends up with proportinately more holiday then everyone else.

Am i missing something here?
"On behalf of teachers, I'd like to dedicate this award to Michael Gove and I mean dedicate in the Anglo Saxon sense which means insert roughly into the anus of." My hero, Mr Steer.
liney is offline
Report Post
# 14
LittleVoice
Old 03-10-2009, 6:11 PM
Fantastically Fervent MoneySaving Super Fan
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,060
Default

The real question is if someone with contracted hours of 7 a week wants a week off and be paid for it, how much will be paid? It will be seven hours.

In the original scenario though, in reality the working time is more like 28 hours. So, getting those 28 hours as holiday will result in only getting pay for 7.

It isn't really "fair" - given that a temp working variable hours would have holiday based on whatever hours/pay had been worked/earned in the previous 12 weeks.
LittleVoice is offline
Report Post
# 15
liney
Old 04-10-2009, 11:50 AM
Fantastically Fervent MoneySaving Super Fan
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,788
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleVoice View Post
The real question is if someone with contracted hours of 7 a week wants a week off and be paid for it, how much will be paid? It will be seven hours.

In the original scenario though, in reality the working time is more like 28 hours. So, getting those 28 hours as holiday will result in only getting pay for 7.

It isn't really "fair" - given that a temp working variable hours would have holiday based on whatever hours/pay had been worked/earned in the previous 12 weeks.
A temps holiday pay is not based on overtime either. If they work 40 hours then do a Saturday as overtime they are not counted as working 6 days that week.
"On behalf of teachers, I'd like to dedicate this award to Michael Gove and I mean dedicate in the Anglo Saxon sense which means insert roughly into the anus of." My hero, Mr Steer.
liney is offline
Report Post
# 16
LittleVoice
Old 04-10-2009, 1:48 PM
Fantastically Fervent MoneySaving Super Fan
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,060
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by liney View Post
A temps holiday pay is not based on overtime either. If they work 40 hours then do a Saturday as overtime they are not counted as working 6 days that week.
No - but then the statutory minimum holiday calculator only calculates holidays based on weeks of up to five days. A full-time employee whose hours were spread over six days, also doesn't get extra days when multiplying by 5.6.

The OP is probably working 4 days a week and being paid 4 x x for that but having paid holiday only at the rate of 1 day a week, 1 x x.

There is no doubt that they can have the time, it is the recompense for that time which is unfair.

I work as a temp and work variable hours according to the requirements of the job but all those hours are M-F, counted as regular hours and paid at my regular hourly rate whi. If I worked at the weekend, I would expect a higher hourly rate to compensate.
LittleVoice is offline
Report Post
# 17
liney
Old 04-10-2009, 6:30 PM
Fantastically Fervent MoneySaving Super Fan
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,788
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleVoice View Post
No - but then the statutory minimum holiday calculator only calculates holidays based on weeks of up to five days. A full-time employee whose hours were spread over six days, also doesn't get extra days when multiplying by 5.6.

The OP is probably working 4 days a week and being paid 4 x £x for that but having paid holiday only at the rate of 1 day a week, 1 x £x.

There is no doubt that they can have the time, it is the recompense for that time which is unfair.

I work as a temp and work variable hours according to the requirements of the job but all those hours are M-F, counted as regular hours and paid at my regular hourly rate whi. If I worked at the weekend, I would expect a higher hourly rate to compensate.

In my experience, a temporary worker who worked 3 on 3 off, or similar (for example) would not accrue holiday if they did an extra shift during the week because it would be overtime, so is therefore not included in the calculations. Overtime by definition, is over and above your contracted hours (or shift pattern) regardless of which days of the week it is done.

Whilst I agree morally, with what you are saying, the law is not on the OP's side.
"On behalf of teachers, I'd like to dedicate this award to Michael Gove and I mean dedicate in the Anglo Saxon sense which means insert roughly into the anus of." My hero, Mr Steer.
liney is offline
Report Post
# 18
LittleVoice
Old 04-10-2009, 8:29 PM
Fantastically Fervent MoneySaving Super Fan
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,060
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by liney View Post
In my experience, a temporary worker who worked 3 on 3 off, or similar (for example) would not accrue holiday if they did an extra shift during the week because it would be overtime, so is therefore not included in the calculations. Overtime by definition, is over and above your contracted hours (or shift pattern) regardless of which days of the week it is done.

Well, I accrue paid holiday entitlement on all my hours during a week. I don't believe that is unusual. - LV

Whilst I agree morally, with what you are saying, the law is not on the OP's side.

If you read my posts you would see that I never said the law was on the OP's side - I have countered others by saying that this permanent member of staff's holiday would be calculated on their contracted hours. - LV
..........
LittleVoice is offline
Report Post
Closed Thread

Bookmarks
 
 




Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

 Forum Jump  

Contact Us - MoneySavingExpert.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All times are GMT. The time now is 2:58 AM.

 Forum Jump  

Free MoneySaving Email

Top deals: Week of 26 November 2014

Get all this & more in MoneySavingExpert's weekly email full of guides, vouchers and Deals

GET THIS FREE WEEKLY EMAIL Full of deals, guides & it's spam free

Latest News & Blogs

Martin's Twitter Feed

profile
  • Is what's app going to be made responsible for all communications on it too? And BT?
  • As someone who runs one of the UKs big social networks (MSE forum) I find the call to monitor every post & PM bizarre & counter legal advice
  • RT @theGeoffMcQ: I follow some City fans who like to use extra letters when they're happy... Hi! @AllyFogg @MartinSLewis @HelenHobday http:?

Cheap Travel Money

Find the best online rate for holiday cash with MSE's TravelMoneyMax.

Find the best online rate for your holiday cash with MoneySavingExpert's TravelMoneyMax.

MSE's Twitter Feed

profile
Always remember anyone can post on the MSE forums, so it can be very different from our opinion.
We use Skimlinks and other affiliated links in some of our boards, for some of our users.