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Millennium door and Gladstone’s Court Claim Form

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Dexterandloki
Dexterandloki Posts: 3 Newbie
edited 18 October 2017 at 8:37PM in Parking tickets, fines & parking
Hi, this is my first post so I hope I’m going about asking for help in the right way.

I’ve had a N1SDT from Northampton on behalf of Gladstone’s acting for Millennium Door and Event Security. I have had a couple of debt recovery letters in the past, but I had no parking ticket on my car.

It relates to a car park Llansamlet Enterprise Park (not Copper Quarter). The car was moved out of an adjoining secure car park for someone to collect so that they didn't have to go through security or disturb security when picking it up. The offence was on a weekend; it was parked there for probably 20 minutes a time many times prior to this and many times after. There are signs stating you can’t park there but as none of the adjoining businesses are open on a weekend and the car is the only one there, it was naively thought they wouldn’t drive around looking for cars to book (millennium are a third party that the land owner, maybe tenant, has appointed).

I’ve read many forums on here, including the ones for newbies. I have completed the acknowledgement in the MCOL and have desperately been trying to put a defence together, but I can’t see one. It doesn’t matter that I haven’t got the parking ticket or that the amount seems unreasonable or that I was causing an inconvenience to anyone (which I read in the thread titled Irrelevant defences and how to avoid them).

I’ve been lying awake at night worrying about a £165.83 claim, £25 court fee and £50 legal costs that I can’t afford.

Is there anyway of reducing the £240.83 claim?

I would be great full for any assistance as I’m worried sick. Thank you.

Comments

  • Quentin
    Quentin Posts: 40,405 Forumite
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    Win in court. Then it will be nil.

    You have missed the bit in the Newbies faq thread that advised never to reveal who was driving.

    Edit your post to remove details of the driver.

    Then take your time reading up the links to defences in the Newbies faq.

    Put your draft up here for comments when ready.
  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 41,410 Forumite
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    Try a search on ‘Search This Forum’, changing ‘Show Threads’ to ‘Show Posts’ using ‘Millennium defence’ as I just have and you’ll get all the relevant defences that have been developed for Millennium over the past 18 months or so.

    Just a quick one that cropped up early in the search list (I’m just going out) is here:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5699663&highlight=millennium+defence

    You will Notice regular contributor LoadsofChildren123 has made some inputs. LOC (as we know her) is a solicitor who is from your neck of the woods and does [STRIKE]revel[/STRIKE] likes getting involved in advising on Millennium. I’m sure your thread title will grab her attention soon.

    The NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post # 2 takes you right through the court process and that needs to be your guide through every step of the way from here on. We have a very successful record against Millennium at court.
    Is there anyway of reducing the £240.83 claim?
    Yep, the Judge will do that for you. :)
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • Dexterandloki
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    I have trawled this website for hours over the last week and have to put my defence in tomorrow - I was away when the claim came through so the time I've had to build my defence has been limited. A lot of the threads on here relate to the Copper Quarter site and residents parking - this relates to a multi business premises car park. All the defences I have read relate to terms of the residential lease, but that doesn't match my situation.

    As I have no details of the claim, I have emailed Gladstone requesting the following:
    1. An explanation of the cause of action
    2. Whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper
    3. Whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
    4. What the details of the claim are (where it is claimed the car was parked, for how long, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated, what contractual breach (if any) is being claimed)
    5. A copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim
    6. A copy of any alleged contract with the driver
    7. A plan showing where any signs were displayed
    8. Details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed)
    9. If they have added anything on to the original charge, what that represents and how it has been calculated.

    I found a recent defence written with help of Lotsofchildren123, however it applies to the Copper Quarter. Taking out the parts relating to the residents lease and the signage there, I'm not sure it holds much weight:

    "1. It is admitted that the defendant, xxxxxx is the registered keeper of the vehicle.

    2. It is denied that any "parking charges” as stated on the Particulars of Claim are owed and any debt is denied in it's entirety. The date of the alleged incident is xxxxx as per the Particulars of Claim.

    3. The identity of the driver of the vehicle on the date in question has not been ascertained, and no evidence has yet been supplied by the claimant as to who parked the vehicle. Under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 there is no presumption in law as to who parked a vehicle on private land nor does there exist any obligation for a keeper to name a driver. It is reiterated that:
    a. The Claimant did not identify the driver
    b. The Defendant has no liability, as they are the Keeper of the vehicle and the Claimant must rely upon the strict provisions of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 in order to hold the defendant responsible for the driver’s alleged breach. It is the defendants right to choose to defend this claim as the registered keeper.

    4. Notwithstanding that the Claimant claims no right to pursue the Defendant as the registered keeper under The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, the Claimant has failed to meet the conditions of the Act and has never acquired any right to pursue the Defendant in this capacity if it cannot identify the driver. This distinguishes the case from Elliott vs Loake (1982) in which there was irrefutable evidence of the drivers identity and moreover, this case was a criminal case and has since been dismissed previously by Judges in cases brought by Gladstones Solicitors. The Protection of Freedom Act 2012 Schedule 4 has not being complied with and the claimant may not quote reasonable assumption. PATAS and POPLA Lead Adjudicator and barrister, Henry Michael Greenslade, clarified that with regards to keeper liability, "There is no ‘reasonable presumption’ in law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver and operators should never suggest anything of the sort"(2015).

    …….

    8. Despite the request for documentation by the defendant, the claimant has not produced these documents to date. It is reasonable for the defendant to request sight of documents and evidence as there is doubt as to the whether the claimant invoked Schedule 4 of the POFA 2012 with fully compliant documents. Accordingly, it is denied that the Claimant has authority to bring this claim. The proper Claimant (if any debt exists, which is denied) would be the landowner. Strict proof is required that there is a chain of contracts leading from the landowner to Millenium Door and Event Security, and no proof has been provided.

    9. The Claimant’s solicitors are known to be a serial issuer of generic claims similar to this one, with no due diligence, no scrutiny of details nor even checking for a true cause of action. HMCS have identified over 1000 similar poorly produced claims and the solicitor's conduct in many of these cases is believed to be currently the subject of an active investigation by the SRA. I believe the term for such conduct is ‘robo-claims’ which is against the public interest, demonstrates a disregard for the dignity of the court and is unfair on unrepresented consumers. I have reason to believe that this is a claim that will proceed without any facts or evidence supplied until the last possible minute, to my significant detriment as an unrepresented Defendant.

    10. It is suggested by the defendant that parking companies using the small claims track as a form of aggressive, automated debt collection is not something the courts should be seen to support.

    11. The alleged debt as described in the claim are unenforceable penalties, being just the sort of unconscionable charges exposed as offending against the penalty rule. This case can be easily distinguished from ParkingEye v Beavis which the Judges held was 'entirely different' from most ordinary economic contract disputes. Charges cannot exist merely to punish drivers. This claimant has failed to show any comparable 'legitimate interest' to save their charge from Lord Dunedin's four tests for a penalty, which the Supreme Court Judges found was still adequate in less complex cases, such as this allegation.

    12. It is submitted that (apart from properly incurred court fees) any added legal fees/costs are simply numbers made up out of thin air, and are an attempt at double recovery by the Claimant, which would not be recoverable in the small claims court.

    13. It is denied that there was any 'relevant obligation' or 'relevant contract' relating to any single parking event.

    14. It is submitted that the conduct of the Claimant is wholly unreasonable and vexatious.
    As such, I am keeping a note of my wasted time/costs in dealing with this matter.

    15. The Defendant puts the Claimant to full proof of its authority both to issue charges on the land in question, and to issue the charge which is the subject of these proceedings. Since the Claimant has failed to produce any information at the pre-action phase of these proceedings to demonstrate its authority, the Defendant must reserve his position in denying that it has such authority until he has had sight of the written contract between the Claimant and the landowner.

    16. It is requested by the defendant that the court strike out this claim for the reasons stated above, and for similar reasons cited by District Judge Cross of St Albans County Court on 20/09/16 where a similar claim was struck out without a hearing, due to Gladstone’s' template particulars for a private parking firm being 'incoherent', failing to comply with CPR16.4, and ''providing no facts that could give rise to any apparent claim in law''.

    Statement of Truth: I confirm that the contents of this statement are true to the best of my knowledge and belief."
  • beamerguy
    beamerguy Posts: 17,587 Forumite
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    I am amazed that Millenium Parking Services
    still use Gladstones, they must be pretty thick skinned

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/india-beavan-agrees-to-drop-millenium.html
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 132,120 Forumite
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    edited 19 October 2017 at 9:37PM
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    I found a recent defence written with help of Lotsofchildren123, however it applies to the Copper Quarter. Taking out the parts relating to the residents lease and the signage there, I'm not sure it holds much weight
    Luckily, Gladstones cases don't hold much weight! Keep the faith. Read the NEWBIES thread for a heads up of what happens next and how to complete the DQ (ignoring the version Gladstones foist on you).

    Please no post next, about them writing about how the case should be 'heard on the papers'!! Eeek!! If I read another post about that again from people who haven't simply searched or Googled those obvious keywords first, I will self-combust.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Dexterandloki
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    I’ve now received the following email direct from Gladstone’s:
    “We act for the Claimant and have notified the Court of our Client’s intention to proceed with the claim.

    Please find attached a copy of our Client’s completed Directions Questionnaire, which will be filed with the court upon their request. You will note we intend to request a special direction that the case be dealt with on the papers and without the need for an oral hearing

    This request is sought simply because the matter is in our Client’s opinion relatively straightforward and the costs incurred by both parties for attending an oral hearing would be disproportionate.

    You will note our Client has elected not to mediate. Its decision is not meant to be in any way obstructive and is based purely on experience, as mediation has rarely proven beneficial in these types of cases. Notwithstanding this, our Client would be happy to listen to any genuine payment proposals that you wish to put forward.”

    I still haven’t received a reply from Gladstone’s to my request for further information including a copy of the contact between the landlord and Millennium. I’m assuming I don’t want this to be based on the papers, but I’m really stressed about going to court - I’ve never been before and the though terrifies me. If I offered to pay the original parking fine (£100), do you think they would settle. I really can’t afford £240.

    Any help would be so greatly appreciated.
  • beamerguy
    beamerguy Posts: 17,587 Forumite
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    edited 13 November 2017 at 3:52PM
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    [QUOTE=Dexterandloki;73405590You will note we intend to request a special direction that the case be dealt with on the papers and without the need for an oral hearing

    This request is sought simply because the matter is in our Client’s opinion relatively straightforward and the costs incurred by both parties for attending an oral hearing would be disproportionate.

    Notwithstanding this, our Client would be happy to listen to any genuine payment proposals that you wish to put forward.”

    I still haven’t received a reply from Gladstone’s to my request for further information including a copy of the contact between the landlord and Millennium. .[/QUOTE]


    The is the typical Gladstones rubbish

    YOU DO NOT want this heard on papers, you want
    this heard by a judge.
    As per usual, Gladstones extend this to the last minute
    by suggesting payment proposals ??

    In other words Gladstones are not sure if they will win
    and in cases like these, they often discontinue but not
    before one last blast try to extort money.

    Not providing the information you requested will be
    their downfall as they are still in their incompetent mode

    Go and see them off in court and get your costs ready

    The courts already know about the incompetent Gladstones
  • nosferatu1001
    nosferatu1001 Posts: 12,961 Forumite
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    As above, this is utterly standa4d and something your research should have picked up.
  • Loadsofchildren123
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    hello, sorry I missed this before. C-M is right, I do like a good spat with Millennium


    Millennium will act in person on the day in court because they are local. The above is all very standard.


    Gladstones will produce a template WS with photos of the car, a printout of the sign and the landowner contract. They should of course have produced this much earlier and you need to make a meal of this.


    I have seen 2 Millennium contracts, one for CQ and another (cant' remember the location) and they are both the same: they both say that they are only authorised to ticket cars reported to them as unauthorised by the landowner. In reality, they never get such reports and you can argue that if they didn't get a report, they weren't entitled to ticket.


    It's perhaps a bit weak, but it's arguable. Swansea is a bit PPC-friendly, Port Talbot is better, not sure which your home court is.


    Millennium aren't very good at complying with POFA so they're a bit stuffed if they didn't serve the NtK on time (which they didn't in my case).


    At a minimum, even if you lose then you argue that all you should pay is the original charge, not all the add-ons, and that because Gladstones merely use templates then the £50 solicitors charge has clearly not been incurred (and put them to full proof if they claim it has). DJ Taylor held earlier this year that the extra add-ons are one and the same as the undiscounted add-back (so £100 ticket, reduced to £60, then goes back up to £100 - the extra £30 IS the extra add-on for non-payment) so that's what you argue.
    So your likely worst case is I think £100 charge, plus a piddly bit of interest, and the court fees (£25+25).


    Unfortunately, they won't accept anything by way of a settlement offer, other than the full whack. That's just the way they operate: they hope that people will be nervous about attending court and will cave in.


    There's a facebook page that you might get help on, but it's mainly CQ cases and I think you'll get much better advice here - Copper Quarter and Swansea vs Millennium Door and Security Group Ltd
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
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