Question regards tongue & groove gate making...

Options
2

Comments

  • JustAnotherSaver
    Options
    Out of interest how would you fix it together?

    Going from what you say you'd slot the T&G all together, no glue, just naturally slotted together.

    Then on the rear there would be a length at the top & bottom with a Z in the middle - so total of 4 horizontal pieces & 1 diagonal.

    How would you fix those to the rear of the T&G? In the video he glues & screws.

    Obviously they need to be fixed but i would've thought even if they were screwed & not glued on, the T&G panels would not be able to move naturally then through the seasons?
  • leveller2911
    leveller2911 Posts: 8,061 Forumite
    edited 25 September 2016 at 3:19PM
    Options
    Out of interest how would you fix it together?

    Going from what you say you'd slot the T&G all together, no glue, just naturally slotted together.

    Then on the rear there would be a length at the top & bottom with a Z in the middle - so total of 4 horizontal pieces & 1 diagonal.

    How would you fix those to the rear of the T&G? In the video he glues & screws.

    If its a gate under 1m high I would just have a top and bottom rail (ledge) and one diagonal brace. If its any taller then add a middle rail and a second brace.

    I would cut the boards to length, place them face down on a bench then use sash cramps to cramp them up but with 2mm plastic packers between the boards whcih creates that space for expansion.

    Then sit the ledges in place on top of the boards.Ledges would be a minimum of ex100 x 25 . There is a right and wrong way to fix the ledges to the boards.You don't need thick ledges , they just add weight, you need wide ledges for support.

    We take note of which side of the gate the hinges will be fitted on and each ledge will be fixed to each board with 3 screws, top,middle and bottom of each board.

    The idea is the screw pattern ,(don't put screws in a line (top,middle,bottom of each board) , put them diagonally the same way the brace will be fitted) actually helps support the gate and along with a diagonal brace.

    By the way the brace doesn't necessarily have to go from one corner of the gate to the other. If a diagonal brace is at an angle of more than 45 degrees on the back of a gate the less support it gives. We often keep a brace 1 or 2 boards in from the side of the gate because the shallower the angle the more support it gives.

    No need for any glue at all unless you want to hide the fixing screws. Drill a 1/2" hole down to a depth of 8mm or so then drill a pilot hole through the ledges, then fix with screws and then plug the 1/2" hole with a wooden pellet/plug,sand down flush with the face of the ledges.

    Obviously they need to be fixed but i would've thought even if they were screwed & not glued on, the T&G panels would not be able to move naturally then through the seasons?
    Timber is a natural materials and will continue to move . Think of when its in a tree and the tree sucks up water from the root system . Those cells are open and remain open even when they are made into doors and windows. Many paint finishes are now microporus which allow the timber to breath ,take on moisture and loose moisture. I've seen front doors with boards where they have expanded so much they have pushed off the door stiles (long upright timbers each side of doors).
  • JustAnotherSaver
    Options
    Yeah i remember our old front door at my mothers. It was a wooden door & it was an absolute nightmare in winter time. Some times you'd be banging away to get it shut but it'd be so free in summer.
    If its a gate under 1m high I would just have a top and bottom rail (ledge) and one diagonal brace. If its any taller then add a middle rail and a second brace.
    Yeah it'll be 1.8mtr high. Thankfully i can get the T&G pieces at exactly 1.8 mtrs in length, so no need for cutting leaving the ends needing treating.
    I would cut the boards to length, place them face down on a bench then use sash cramps to cramp them up but with 2mm plastic packers between the boards whcih creates that space for expansion.
    Are we talking about these things http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PLASTIC-WINDOW-GLAZING-SPACERS-FLOORING-WATERPROOF-FLAT-PACKERS-1mm-to-6mm-/111594402927 ? I just highlighted & googled your "2mm plastic packers".

    If so then where would you locate these in the T&G? Surely once it's all slotted in place there's nowhere to insert anything?
    We take note of which side of the gate the hinges will be fitted on and each ledge will be fixed to each board with 3 screws, top,middle and bottom of each board.
    2 things here ...

    1) Is there a right & a wrong side to locate the hinge? I was looking at using 2 or 3 450mm T-hinges.

    2) If i've got the idea of your 3 screws right, then each T&G board has 3 screws screwed through the T&G board & in to the 4x1 on the rear? So if there's 10 T&G boards making up the basis of your gate then that's a total of 30 screws?
  • JustAnotherSaver
    Options
    leveller - this one just came to me regards what you said about gluing.

    I know this is flooring & not a gate but at my place of work we sell chipboard flooring & it says to glue the joints.

    Why would it say to glue the joints if gluing is a bad thing?


    Not challenging you here as i'm sure you'll have an explanation, i just wondered.
  • getmore4less
    getmore4less Posts: 46,882 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Anniversary First Post I've helped Parliament
    Options
    I would have gone to the sheds and had a look at how the gates were made.

    my gate full frame (been climbed over a few times) was made with those "crinkle chip fixings"**, 20years and it needed some hammer work to fix some of the 40mm drop on the bolt side due to shrinkage, bit of work taking it down and there is another 20years in the wood.

    your hinge the side where the diagonal brace is at the bottom, the idea is to hold the bolt side up,

    wood joints/brace work best in compression.

    If you need to cut stuff with a Circular saw, use a long bit of timber as an guide edge to get a clean line.

    ** can I find a link to those when I need one, NO.
  • getmore4less
    getmore4less Posts: 46,882 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Anniversary First Post I've helped Parliament
    Options
    leveller - this one just came to me regards what you said about gluing.

    I know this is flooring & not a gate but at my place of work we sell chipboard flooring & it says to glue the joints.

    Why would it say to glue the joints if gluing is a bad thing?


    Not challenging you here as i'm sure you'll have an explanation, i just wondered.

    Chipboard inside is very different to wood outside.

    glued is not bad in the right situations, ply is glued, chipboard is glued

    a lot of products are made by cut and glue to give stability.

    outside you are dealing with more extremes of moisture.
    glue a load of T&G and you end up with a big sheet, what it is attached to nd how is the key to making it work.
  • leveller2911
    leveller2911 Posts: 8,061 Forumite
    edited 25 September 2016 at 10:00PM
    Options
    leveller - this one just came to me regards what you said about gluing.

    I know this is flooring & not a gate but at my place of work we sell chipboard flooring & it says to glue the joints.

    Why would it say to glue the joints if gluing is a bad thing?


    Not challenging you here as i'm sure you'll have an explanation, i just wondered.


    Chipboard flooring is used indoors, its also constructed from chippings of wood which are compressed and glued up into sheets.You glue the joints to stop the flooring from squeeking when you walk over it and it also means you can have a joint in the flooring in between the joist rather than joining the boards over a joist (which I still prefer) Also chipboard flooring is used used indoors it doesn't have the same issues as timber does outdoors with expanding and contracting with the weather. In Summer timber shrinks due to the heat and dry air, in Winter it expands due to the moisture in the atmosphere.

    The problem solid timber products such as furniture, fire surrounds,radiator covers have inside houses is the dry air and lack of moisture. This can cause the timber to shrink. There are species of timber such as Tulipwood that are very good for indoor use such as radiator cover, kitchen units next radiators etc . Their cell structure is different from many other species so they aren't affected by the heat from cookers,AGA's and radiators whereas Redwood pines will shrink,twist and split near heat sources.
  • JustAnotherSaver
    Options
    Well right enough - had a look at it today (still haven't fitted the hinges & bolts as i bought in T hinges but was advised i should use hook & band hinges as they're better) - on about 3 panels the tongue has split from the panel it connects in to.

    It isn't noticeable unless you're up close & inspecting, but it's happened.

    I'll hang it all the same & see how we get on. If/when i have to make a new one i'll leave the glue to one side. :)
  • leveller2911
    leveller2911 Posts: 8,061 Forumite
    edited 9 October 2016 at 10:07PM
    Options
    Thanks for coming back with an update.............. As you say its not a huge mistake but if you do make another one when you slide the boards together don't push them together tight.Leave at least 3mm between them to allow the boards to expand. Also make sure you give the tongues and grooves a coat of stain/primer and this will limit the amount they expand.

    Softwood pine boards often split if they are sawn from the centre of the tree ,when they expand ,if there isn't enough room they can bow the gate and bow the boards so its probably not your fault if they have split in the middle of the boards.
    Regards Leveller :)
  • JustAnotherSaver
    Options
    As for splits elsewhere, there's only 1 panel that has split centrally down the panel itself. It hasn't opened up a huge amount, but there are small splits right down the length. I'll get you a photo next time i can think on.

    That's the only split other than where the tongue locks in to the groove on a few panels.


    When you say coat them with stain/primer ... the end result the gate will be painted with ducksback (have since read you should allow the pressure treated timber 6-8 weeks before painting. Some sources recommend up to 6months!!), but what product are you talking about with the stain / primer?

    If it helps any, we'll be looking at a dark brown shade for end result (we bought Ducksback Forest Oak - don't buy their Harvest Brown as it looks nothing like it says on the tin - we had to take it back today to exchange for Forest Oak).
This discussion has been closed.
Meet your Ambassadors

Categories

  • All Categories
  • 343.2K Banking & Borrowing
  • 250.1K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
  • 449.7K Spending & Discounts
  • 235.3K Work, Benefits & Business
  • 608.1K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
  • 173.1K Life & Family
  • 247.9K Travel & Transport
  • 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
  • 15.9K Discuss & Feedback
  • 15.1K Coronavirus Support Boards