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That article is worth reading just for the funny comments after it
I do get what they are saying, but at present, total installed capacity is 4. something GW. That is less than 10% of total demand at midday even if all were outputting 100% of installed capacity, which they won't.
It's interesting this.
The problem is that is total!
I imagine overall it isn't a problem but in certain areas it could become a problem sooner than some anticipate. It only needs a large solar array around the corner and I imagine a situation where there is too much generation in area will become more of a problem.0 -
It's interesting this.
The problem is that is total!
I imagine overall it isn't a problem but in certain areas it could become a problem sooner than some anticipate. It only needs a large solar array around the corner and I imagine a situation where there is too much generation in area will become more of a problem.
This (TOO much solar) is something that pops up every 6 months or so. But:-
1. Already solved in Germany a couple of years ago. Their inverters track the grid frequency, and operate shutdowns if there is too much solar, so problem solved.
2. As mentioned earlier, figures are often based on total GWp of installed PV, but actual output will vary depending on temperature, orientation and pitch (and some shading).
3. The fear factor in the UK, is a lazy sunny summer Sunday afternoon, but too much solar would push down spot prices. But over time expect clever folk to find ways to utilise this either as storage, or cheaper manufacturing on 'something'.
4. The UK is pushing for more roof-top PV, rather than utility scale. Unlike most industries/technologies the economies of scale of PV are quite small, but the difference in income stream (grid supply price v's import price) is huge, giving demand side PV an economic advantage. Linking back to 2. with less likelihood of 'ideal' orientated panels, all doing the same thing at the same time.
5. Storage, the second domestic scale storage becomes viable, the problem is solved. In fact, in other countries, subsidised trials are taking place, since the savings from smoothing out price peaks/troughs, can make subsidies cheaper than adding more peak generation. Only my guess, but I'm assuming storage doesn't apply to commercial systems, since they'd probably use all they generate, all the time(?)
6. As mentioned by Z, most of this is probably coming from supply side fears about loss of market. Look at Spain, taxing generation if grid tied, and threatening monstrous fines for solar theft if off-grid, why? Because domestic systems are already viable, and the loss of market is terrifying the suppliers.
All of this will smooth out over time, PV has just shaken things up faster than expected, and the future potential is slowly starting to sink in, and it truly scares some people! :rotfl:
Mart.Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW). Two A2A units for cleaner heating.
For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.0 -
All good points as usual Mart. Re. point 5, DNOs in the UK are already exploring solar PV with local storage as a way of avoiding traditional reinforcement - e.g. http://www.smarternetworks.org/Project.aspx?ProjectID=394
So the old 'the grid can't cope' argument looks even more dodgy. Solar PV, especially deployed intelligently can actually help the grid. Of course there needs to be control, but there is already extensive modelling and planning for larger scale solar.My PV system: South West England, 10x 250Wp Trina Solar panels, Fronius Inverter, South facing roof, 35° pitch with no shading.0 -
Very interesting Mart! The other thing I would add is that the UK has a lot of gas powered generation, which is probably the easiest type of non-renewable generation to substitute as it can (and already is) switched on and off to meet demand. It's a relatively expensive fuel too. I don't think Germany has much gas power.
If you look at Gridwatch, you can see that during the day at the moment, UK demand hovers around 35 GW with gas contributing about 15 GW, going down to about 25 and 7 GW in the early ours. So taken crudely, that's 15 GW of relatively expensive, polluting gas that can be cut into on a summer day.
EdSolar install June 2022, Bath
4.8 kW array, Growatt SPH5000 inverter, 2x Growatt ML33RTA batteries.
SSW roof. ~22° pitch, BISF house. 12 x 400W Hyundai panels0 -
Really? Germany's reliance on Russian Gas is the reason that Merkel wont support sanctions against her pal Vlad. Germany relies heavily on coal.
Its amazing that eco zelots never have an answer to the inconvenient truth that 80% of UK homes are heated by gas and 40% of our electricity is generated that way too.
How are all those wind turbines doing today, O yes 5%
On the other hand scientists have been able to produce pure lithium which would lead to a tripling of battery capacity. Maybe a better bet that building more Dinorwigs.That gum you like is coming back in style.0 -
I've got a bunch of redundant 2U APC UPS's in our server room at work...
Here's my plan...
Stick some in the garage and plug them in to something like those Belkin WeMo remote plugs. Set a schedule for them to come on once the sun's up and power off once the sun's gone.
Plug in bits and bobs to charge off the battery overnight (as I've switched them off from the mains they'll run on battery until morning comes when they'll get switched on by the plug schedule).
Thoughts?
(I may be joking on this)4kWp system (Feb 2014) : 1.5 SW, 2.5 NE (16x Bisol BMO/250, Aurora Power-One UNO PVI-3.6 Inverter : pvoutput.org/list.jsp?id=299350 -
Really? Germany's reliance on Russian Gas is the reason that Merkel wont support sanctions against her pal Vlad. Germany relies heavily on coal.
Its amazing that eco zelots never have an answer to the inconvenient truth that 80% of UK homes are heated by gas and 40% of our electricity is generated that way too.
How are all those wind turbines doing today, O yes 5%
On the other hand scientists have been able to produce pure lithium which would lead to a tripling of battery capacity. Maybe a better bet that building more Dinorwigs.
I think you've typed before thinking
Using terms like 'eco zealots' doesn't suggest sober and rational analysis, but something that would be posted by a crank railing against wind turbines and climate science on a Daily Mail forum.
We are talking about electricity generation. Germany uses little gas for electricity generation, they use it for heating and industrial processes.
I've also pointed out how much gas the UK uses for electricity generation and how this actually makes the addition of solar easier, as gas is the easiest fossil fuel generation to substitute for.
And 5% from wind is not unreasonable given how little is installed... surely the answer to little wind power is more wind capacity, not less?
As for heating, it doesn't have much relevance here, but anyone who wants to cut fossil fuel use and save energy for environmental and economic reasons has long advocated much better home insulation. After all, it's been possible for some time now to build homes that are well enough insulated that they do not need heating systems and existing homes can also be massively improved.
EdSolar install June 2022, Bath
4.8 kW array, Growatt SPH5000 inverter, 2x Growatt ML33RTA batteries.
SSW roof. ~22° pitch, BISF house. 12 x 400W Hyundai panels0 -
HiMartyn1981 wrote: ».... 4. The UK is pushing for more roof-top PV, rather than utility scale. Unlike most industries/technologies the economies of scale of PV are quite small, but the difference in income stream (grid supply price v's import price) is huge, giving demand side PV an economic advantage. ....
From what's happening around here I don't know whether that's changing ..... a 5MWp system is pretty certain to be started soon a few miles away & an additional 9MWp one is being talked about (pre-planning) a few miles in the opposite direction, these being part of somewhere around 100MWp of planned large pv farms (that I know about) within about 15miles of where I'm sitting .... this must be evidence of a reasonable supply-side margin, else why would they be built ...
HTH
Z"We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
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Hi
From what's happening around here I don't know whether that's changing ..... a 5MWp system is pretty certain to be started soon a few miles away & an additional 9MWp one is being talked about (pre-planning) a few miles in the opposite direction, these being part of somewhere around 100MWp of planned large pv farms (that I know about) within about 15miles of where I'm sitting .... this must be evidence of a reasonable supply-side margin, else why would they be built ...
HTH
Z
Hiya Z. As always, it's all down to subsidies. And I should have said the UK government (not UK) is pushing ...... The current ROCs subsidies are still attractive, but they are going, to be replaced by CfD's. The over 5MWp are to lose ROCs sooner than originally expected, so the current rush for large scale is still happening, but ends next April I think, or something like that.
Also the govt is only going to put out a small amount of capacity for CfD tendering, which PV will be allowed to compete for.
It's interesting to read how they are doing this to prevent a public backlash against utility scale PV ....... despite there being no apparent backlash building up so far?
My suspicions are that they don't want too much competition for nuclear.
I may have missed a technology, but I really can't think of another one that in the long run favours supply side over demand side like PV. This might sound stupid, but perhaps the small economies of scale (or small dis-economies of scale) aren't just down to the technology being similar (large or small scale) but also because it's nearly two dimensional, thus reducing scaleable gains, where as most technologies scale up 3 dimensionally ....... does that make any sense at all?
Mart.Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW). Two A2A units for cleaner heating.
For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.0 -
Plenty of solar PV farms being planned where I am as well.
A couple of interesting co-op schemes as well are getting press.
There's the FIT and also EIS which provides a potential 30% tax break on an investors original lump sum - these schemes promise 7% ROI plus the EIS
I think the FIT regression will help to avoid a scenario where too much generation occurs but it may need to fall faster than currently planned.
I am amazed at the rates of the return on these schemes and indeed putting solar PV on your own roof.
I would think this will just sort itself out over time though.0
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