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Leisure World Ticket
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barrymung
Posts: 638 Forumite
Hi All,
Just received a ticket for leisure world in Southampton from PE. The details are as follows and I'd like advice on how to proceed.
1. The PCN is for parking without typing the reg. number into the machine in the lobby. The driver says that they did this, but it obviously didn't register for whatever reason.
2. They were there for just over half an hour, dropping off a child at the Odeon and waiting with them until their mates turned up. The child is autistic and doesn't like being left alone.
3. The cinema ticket got thrown away
4. The driver is not named on the PCN; the person named on the PCN was at work that day (This can be proved)
5. I'm led to believe PE have no jurisdiction over the land as it comes under ABP byelaws.
6. the car park was virtually empty - no losses would have been incurred by the Odeon.
7. Signage isn't particularly clear. There's a big vinyl banner about 30 foot off the ground as you go in, but it looks like an advertising banner at first glance and is so 'wordy' a driver isn't likely to read it to the end.
8. The PCN was received 17 days after the 'offence'. (It was issued exactly 14 days after the 'offence')
Any advice on the best way to appeal this?
Just received a ticket for leisure world in Southampton from PE. The details are as follows and I'd like advice on how to proceed.
1. The PCN is for parking without typing the reg. number into the machine in the lobby. The driver says that they did this, but it obviously didn't register for whatever reason.
2. They were there for just over half an hour, dropping off a child at the Odeon and waiting with them until their mates turned up. The child is autistic and doesn't like being left alone.
3. The cinema ticket got thrown away
4. The driver is not named on the PCN; the person named on the PCN was at work that day (This can be proved)
5. I'm led to believe PE have no jurisdiction over the land as it comes under ABP byelaws.
6. the car park was virtually empty - no losses would have been incurred by the Odeon.
7. Signage isn't particularly clear. There's a big vinyl banner about 30 foot off the ground as you go in, but it looks like an advertising banner at first glance and is so 'wordy' a driver isn't likely to read it to the end.
8. The PCN was received 17 days after the 'offence'. (It was issued exactly 14 days after the 'offence')
Any advice on the best way to appeal this?
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Comments
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Have you complained to the Odeon and asked them to intervene and get this cancelled? Ask them if the machine was playing up on the day? Ask them if it is prone to unreliability. Try to get some confirmation from them in writing.1. The PCN is for parking without typing the reg. number into the machine in the lobby. The driver says that they did this, but it obviously didn't register for whatever reason.
Not fatal. Do you have a bank/cc statement showing the transaction?3. The cinema ticket got thrown away
Useful if the NtK is not PoFA compliant. But for later in the process, not initially.4. The driver is not named on the PCN; the person named on the PCN was at work that day (This can be proved)5. I'm led to believe PE have no jurisdiction over the land as it comes under ABP byelaws.
I'm sure that's come up previously. Do a forum search here and on PePiPoo for previous threads.
Forget that, Beavis all but put paid to it as an argument.6. the car park was virtually empty - no losses would have been incurred by the Odeon.
If you're local, get some photographs, plus others of any other on-site signage.7. Signage isn't particularly clear. There's a big vinyl banner about 30 foot off the ground as you go in, but it looks like an advertising banner at first glance and is so 'wordy' a driver isn't likely to read it to the end.
If there is no reference to the Protection of Freedoms Act on the reverse side of the NtK, including a paragraph with starts 'If after 29 days .....' then you've got what is known as a 'Golden Ticket'. Leaving this out more than suggests that PE are fully aware they have no cause to pursue the keeper (either because of late service of the NtK or the fact that bylaws are in place - or both). This fact alone should make it absolutely vital not to identify who the driver was.8. The PCN was received 17 days after the 'offence'. (It was issued exactly 14 days after the 'offence')
Just use the basic initial appeal (blue text) from the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #1. Normally we advise no additions/alterations as the naive are likely to blow some of their toes off by putting stuff in that screws up their prospects of later appeal opportunities.Any advice on the best way to appeal this?
But in your case I would formulate a final paragraph which reminds them that as the service of the NtK was outside of the PoFA timeline (especially if they have omitted the 'If after 29 days ....' paragraph) and the fact that the site is covered by bylaws, they have no case against you, the vehicle's registered keeper, and the charge should be dropped.
State that if, having pointed this out to them, they continue to pursue you, you will have no hesitation in reporting them to David Dunford of the DVLA, the ICO and the BPA as a precursor to a claim against them for the incorrect use of your personal details in breach of the principles of the Data Protection Act.
Hopefully this will kill it at source for you.
Let us know if your NtK has the 'If after 29 days ...' paragraph missing please.Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .
I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.
Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street0 -
1. Not yet. I didn't want to do anything until I'd sought advice from you guys.
3. Nope. Paid in cash.
4. OK, will save that info for later
5. Will do a search
6. OK, will take that on board
7. Will try and get some pics
8. No reference to PoFA as far as I can see. No reference to 29 days either. The front of the ticket DOES make reference to a reduced price if paid up to 14 days after the ticket was issued, which is probably a bit unfair as when it arrived it only allows 11 days.
What's a 'Golden ticket'?
Many thanks for your advice!0 -
Looked a bit closer at the blurb on the back and it makes reference to being able to appeal to PoPLA, but doesn't give a timescale for this.
It DOES make reference to appeals to PE must be made within 28 days of the date on the PCN, which would be 25 days in my case.
So, my letter to the Odeon, presumably this should just be a complaint as a long standing customer, rather than providing all the technical details of why the PCN shouldn't stand in this particular case? I don't want to bamboozle the poor manager who may, or may not be au fait with the legalities.0 -
Forum terminology for a 'Get out of jail for free card'. Maintain your position as the vehicle's keeper, driver unknown, and you will easily beat this charge.What's a 'Golden ticket'?
Make sure you send in your initial appeal by their deadline. The worst you will get is a rejection with a POPLA code (with which you will win this), but there's a reasonable chance that PE will uphold your initial appeal.It DOES make reference to appeals to PE must be made within 28 days of the date on the PCN, which would be 25 days in my case.
Yes, tell it from the heart, but don't reveal who the driver was, especially in writing just in case the letter/email is forwarded to PE for their observations. No need for any of the technical stuff with him/her.So, my letter to the Odeon, presumably this should just be a complaint as a long standing customer,
If you are known to/recognised by the manager as a regular customer, a face-to-face might be better. Make sure the car's VRM is input this time! :rotfl:Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .
I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.
Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street0 -
Looked a bit closer at the blurb on the back
If you've looked and not seen a section on POFA/29 days to keeper liability, you have a Golden ticket!PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
Thanks for the advice, guys. It is genuinely appreciated and I'll of course report back on the outcome.
PE would obviously maintain that the charge is a fair reflection of their costs incurred etc. and the ticket constitutes an invoice, which has got me thinking. If successful, could I issue an invoice to PE in return, covering my costs dealing with this claim, such as letter writing, postage, time spent on forums etc.? I might just do this once the ticket is out of the way as I'll be interested to see what argument they come up with to wiggle out of it.
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People have tried but with no luck because PE would say their actions were reasonable.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
Coupon-mad wrote: »People have tried but with no luck because PE would say their actions were reasonable.
If I have the energy I still might fire off a letter on the basis they know that the land is controlled by ABP (As evidenced by previous appeals) thus they *knew* their actions were unreasonable.
Letter has gone off to Odeon, appealing to their better nature. Appeal to PE will go tomorrow sometime.
I'll keep you all posted.0 -
Hi Barry
ABP Byelaws is a red herring for Leisure World PCNs.
ABP's map of the Port of Southampton shows that Leisure World is situated outside of the port's boundaries and based on an evidence pack previously received from PE, the landholder at Leisure World is Rank Group Gaming Division Limited, not ABP.0 -
Edna_Basher wrote: »Hi Barry
ABP Byelaws is a red herring for Leisure World PCNs.
ABP's map of the Port of Southampton shows that Leisure World is situated outside of the port's boundaries and based on an evidence pack previously received from PE, the landholder at Leisure World is Rank Group Gaming Division Limited, not ABP.
There a reference elsewhere on the forum which says: "The car park in Southampton Leisure World is within the area governed by the ABP Southampton Byelaws, meaning PE cannot operate Keeper Liability as determined by a recent POPLA win."
Is this not correct? Is it worth including this, even though it may be factually incorrect? The ABP map is dubious to say the least. Is it worth spending the £4 with the land registry to find out who holds title to the land?0
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