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Excel BW Legal 2012 court claim faulty machine.

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  • The_Deep
    The_Deep Posts: 16,830 Forumite
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    I know that, that was not my question.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
  • Quentin
    Quentin Posts: 40,405 Forumite
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    The_Deep wrote: »
    I know that, that was not my question.
    Well, the issue of the wrong location has been covered by LOC123 - see #47
  • The_Deep
    The_Deep Posts: 16,830 Forumite
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    But if the claim is bound to fail on location, why so is everyone so concerned about who was driving?
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,733 Forumite
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    Because it isn't *bound* to fail on that issue, due to the sad truth of DJ Lottery. However, being pre-POFA, it is just as likely to fail on 'no keeper liability' so both points are of huge importance.

    To the OP, this might help re the wording at the end of your skeleton argument for court. You want to show unreasonableness, so you can try to claim punitive (higher) costs:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=112635&st=140&p=1308091&#entry1308091

    In your case you can add to that, the unreasonableness of pretending that they can assume who was driving in 2012 with no evidence whatsoever, yet knowing that they were actually banned by the DVLA that same year for 3 months, for saying exactly the same thing they are trying to say in court, now. Has to be abuse of the court process and indeed, contempt of court for them to keep trying to argue the exact same thing they were sanctioned for, in 2012, hoping the Defendant and court doesn't know that.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Hotchocolate
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    Hi all,
    Been working on my witness statement for the past two days, bloody hell its tough going.
    Wont post it yet as im sure Excel and BW legal visit this forum for help.

    Anyway my research has lead me to an interesting point in that Wolverhampton City Council own the land and Excel where just service providers with a service agreement.

    It turns out that the car park itself was public land and apparently should not be used for contractual term parking enforcement. Also ANPR cameras alone should not have been used for ticketing.

    Does anyone have any experience with this argument, I have the Robert Goodwill MPs letter to local councils and am currently researching the road traffic reguation acts to see if anythings relevant.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,733 Forumite
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    edited 21 August 2017 at 2:09PM
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    It's an argument that can be used in addition to your other ones; you are right that Local Authorities were told they were not to operate public car parks as if they were private land. And Wycombe Council (exposed to this scrutiny by our own poster bargepole!) did not take it to JR, so the fact stands that LA car parks cannot be operated by ANPR, and never should have been 'run' as if they were private land.

    Have you got Excel v Lamoureux and Excel v Smith (the latter is a new transcript which kills any argument about CPS v AJH Films, among other things):

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/hzmxw4bwab9vl8w/index.php.pdf?dl=0

    Strictly speaking, your WS should be the facts as you know them, what happened when, which letters arrived when, and the fact that you ignored them because you knew that as registered keeper you were not legally liable, and the brightly-coloured demands bore all the hallmarks of a scam.

    Then your legal arguments and case transcripts can follow, with your skeleton argument (which is not time-bound because you don't have to file one, but if you choose to, it must be sent to the court and the Claimant in advance).

    Just saying this because it might take the pressure off you to file a simple, signed WS today - get that done - then take a bit longer with your skeleton argument.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • System
    System Posts: 178,094 Community Admin
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    edited 21 August 2017 at 6:31AM
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    There are pics of the signs for this car park available (ask CM). They do not appear to ask for a VRM but for a "valid" ticket.

    There is also a number to call in case of machine error. The driver complied by contacting the on site personnel. This would need a WS by the driver and identifies him/her but since the driver complied with the signs, there will be no risk.(Estoppel)

    IMHO you should now go to town on Excel with a LBCC for data misuse.
  • Hotchocolate
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    Thanks again everyone.
    @coupon-mad.. cheers for the Excel v Smith case info, I have used the Excel v Lamoureux case example.

    Although I finished my WS last week I've spent the odd hour looking deeper into the public land aspect so almost rewrote it this weekend.
    Drivers witness statement also included.

    Win or lose I've done all I can.

    Massive thanks for everyone's help.
    Hope Excel pay the court fee, they have only a few days left..
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,733 Forumite
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    Good stuff.

    Don't forget that BW Legal usually send legal reps who have no Right of Audience and can be kicked out of the court room or told to stay silent, within the first 5 minutes. You do not need anyone's assistance with this, you can achieve it even if the Judge firstly says ''it's OK, this rep has appeared here before'' (so what...just measn no-one has challenged their RoA before!):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5640934

    That thread includes a link to a Preliminary Matters written submission to ask the Usher to put before the Judge up front immediately before the hearing, or for you to brandish as a starter for ten, if your adversary is not 'an exempt person'.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Hotchocolate
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    Just a small update, with the court date looming excel have made an offer to discontinue for a £50 settlement.

    I have declined their offer.
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