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4 PCNs in 7 days in residential carpark

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  • scrib2074
    scrib2074 Posts: 25 Forumite
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    Coupon-mad wrote: »
    You should read, use and adapt the humdinger of a LBC that LoadsofChildren123 wrote here:

    I would absolutely go on the attack. Even about the £12 'fee' for daring to have to change the VRN on the 'permit' which again was never agreed by you or your landlord, any more than the 'parking charges' were.

    You will need to adapt what LoadsOf has written (as linked by hairray in post #103) because your case is different with a different lease granted to your landlord and different status for you as authorised tenant (but you still enjoy rights). Your case is especially helped if your Landlord will show you any points in his/her lease about 'peaceful enjoyment' or the 'right to park a vehicle/use the car park, etc.'

    Get researching and read that absolute peach of a LBC. No waiting to be sued.

    Thanks so much for your help and advice. I can see why people fold and pay, my landlord brushed off my complaints and the parking company say they have the landlord's backing.

    I now have a copy of my tenancy agreement on the way from the housing association. I do have a copy but I'm missing the appendix so wanted the whole thing.

    The Landlord's duties section does not specifically mention parking, it does say
    Not to interrupt or interfere with the Tenant's right to peacefully occupy the
    Premises except where:
    (a) Access is required subject to reasonable notice to inspect the condition of
    the Premises, to undertake an annual inspection of gas-related appliances
    (2.6) or to carry out repairs or other works to the Premises or adjoining
    property, except in the case of an emergency when no notice is required;
    (b) The Landlord is entitled to possession at the end of the Tenancy.

    Under Tenant's Duties
    Parking and Roadways
    3.41 Not to block local roadways, other vehicular access and footpaths, and to keep
    the road, car parking spaces and footpaths clear of unroadworthy, unlicensed
    and untaxed vehicles and other obstructions.

    That is the only time car parking spaces are directly referenced in the document. My car has an MOT and is taxed and insured as it was at the time of issue of the PCNs. My reading is I can use the car parking spaces as long as my car meets those conditions but it does not specifically say so. It also does not say I need a permit to use them.

    Under Tenant's Rights
    Right to Occupy
    4.1 To occupy the Premises without interruption or interference from the Landlord
    for the duration of the Tenancy (except for the obligation contained in this
    Agreement to give access to the Landlord's employees, agents or contractors)
    so long as the Tenant complies with the terms of this Agreement.

    I also pay a weekly service charge covered in the agreement. That includes outside maintenance services such as the cutting back of the hedge around the carpark to reveal the nasty, threatening signs. It also covers exterior lighting which is in the carpark, some away from the buildings so it's only purpose is to light rear carparking spaces.

    There was no consultation process before a parking scheme was introduced and no notice from the landlord that there would be a £12 fee to continue using the carpark if you wanted to buy a new car. Or that you need to display a permit at all.

    I am onto the researching, thanks for the link to that thread. I'm livid about the last email from the parking mob, "the fee you will pay was agreed between the landlord and us". Not sure my landlord has the power to enter me into contracts...
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,777 Forumite
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    I'm livid about the last email from the parking mob, "the fee you will pay was agreed between the landlord and us". Not sure my landlord has the power to enter me into contracts...

    And I doubt your Landlord agreed it at all!

    Show us you LBC in the stylee of the hairray thread link (the LBC written by LoadsofChildren123 is hard-hitting and can be adapted to suit).
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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  • safarmuk
    safarmuk Posts: 648 Forumite
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    To be honest, from experience, you will not get a sensible answer back from the PPC, so don't expend/waste any energy on that at all. All the PPC's seem to believe that there is no other contract than the signage in the car park and quote it verbatim.

    They conveniently (or deliberately) forget about the lease or AST that was there before their signs.

    The Landlord or MA's either don't have control of the PPC or have been told to back off and let the PPC deal with this (in their own belligerent way). Often this leads to stalemate until a court sorts it out and even then the Landlord remains unscathed.

    The best way forward is as C-M suggests and target the landlord somewhat starting with reading up on what LOC123 wrote for Hairray.
  • scrib2074
    scrib2074 Posts: 25 Forumite
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    Coupon-mad wrote: »
    And I doubt your Landlord agreed it at all!

    Show us you LBC in the stylee of the hairray thread link (the LBC written by LoadsofChildren123 is hard-hitting and can be adapted to suit).

    Good point, I shall ask the landlord. My homework for the weekend is to write a letter to them. I will definitely post here for comments before sending.
    safarmuk wrote: »

    The Landlord or MA's either don't have control of the PPC or have been told to back off and let the PPC deal with this (in their own belligerent way). Often this leads to stalemate until a court sorts it out and even then the Landlord remains unscathed.

    The best way forward is as C-M suggests and target the landlord somewhat starting with reading up on what LOC123 wrote for Hairray.

    Thanks, and I agree. I'm sure I'll be ignored by the PPC. I'm equally sure I'll get a response to any correspondence I send to my landlord. As a housing association they live for consultation which is why I was so surprised none was done before bringing the scammers in. They also seem to have the blinkers on that PPCs are awesome and everybody would want their carpark infested with them. The obvious contradiction that the PPC was brought in to protect the rights of tenants to park there and yet they are issuing invoices to those same tenants for parking there was certainly lost on their Housing Services Manager. More than happy to target them instead.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,777 Forumite
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    Good.

    Hairray's thread now has examples of all out 'legal attack' letters for Managing Agents and the PPC.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • scrib2074
    scrib2074 Posts: 25 Forumite
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    Coupon-mad wrote: »
    Good.

    Hairray's thread now has examples of all out 'legal attack' letters for Managing Agents and the PPC.

    Far from an all out legal attack but an opening salvo maybe. Names changed to protect the "innocent". Feedback welcome, please let me know if I need to redact further for here.
    Dear Mickey Housing

    This letter is not an official complaint according to Mickey's complaint procedures. I reserve the right to use those complaint procedures if my concerns are not addressed.

    I have been a Mickey tenant for 7 years. I have owned a car for that entire period and have used the carpark at KT for parking my car throughout that time. I was recently issued four Parking Charge Notices (PCN) by the private parking company Greedy Park (GP). The first incident for which the PCNs were issued is dated 00 April 2017 and the last 00 May 2017. The reason for issue is failure to display a valid permit.

    I do not have a valid permit as I changed my car in February. The new permit style issued by GP requires the holder to write their Vehicle Registration Mark (VRM) on it. My new car, obviously, had a different VRM and I wrote this over the top of the old one in black ink on the permit. I naively believed the purpose of the permit was to show I was a bone fide resident and that the new VRM written in black ink would confirm the permit was not being transferred between cars. GP have informed me that a replacement permit will cost £10 plus £2 banking fee. They also said they have agreed this fee with you. Have you agreed that if a tenant wishes to change their vehicle there will be a £12 fee for doing so as a fait accompli?

    Please refer to the tenancy agreement signed by both myself and Mickey Housing dated 0 May 2010. Within this agreement there is no obligation placed on myself as a tenant to display a permit in my vehicle when using the carpark. Parking is only directly referenced once in Section 3.41 which prescribes that I use my car in a considerate manner and that I maintain it in accordance with the law. I am meeting those requirements. Section 1.17 of the agreement allows for Mickey to make changes to the contract under certain circumstances. Mickey has introduced no such variance requiring me to display a permit.

    I contend that the tenancy agreement has primacy of contract and that GP's punitive charges are baseless and unenforceable. Please refer to the recent cases of Pace v Mr N [2016] C6GF140 and Link Parking v Ms P C7GF50J7. In both of these cases it was found that a parking company could not override a tenant's right to park by requiring a permit to park. In the first case I referenced District Judge Coonan makes the concept of primacy of contract clear. What GP are attempting to do, unilaterally and outside the tenancy agreement, is restrict my right to park to only when a permit is displayed. They cannot do this.

    Therefore, GP have no case against me and have committed a breach of the Data Protection Act when they applied for Keeper Details for my vehicle. I have served them a Section 10 notice under the DPA. As GP are acting as your agent, having been authorised by you to carry out its parking management, you are jointly and severally liable for its breaches of the DPA. Furthermore, my right to peacefully occupy the premises is being compromised by a flurry of letters with threats of dire legal consequences if I do not comply with arbitrary conditions and make immediate payment to your agent, GP.

    Please note GP had cause to presume I was a genuine resident by the presence of the adjusted permit. They had better cause when they obtained Keeper Details with the registered address as 00 KT Flats. Yet they continued to pursue me for payment and issued 3 further PCNs. No reputable parking company would ticket a bona fide resident. I will not pay the 4 PCNs. I will vigorously defend any court action GP bring against me and I will not hesitate to issue a counter claim.

    This is not a situation where a hapless shopper has incurred a charge for over staying in a retail carpark. It is not a situation where somebody is visiting a sick relative and forget to pay and display in a hospital carpark. I am being ticketed for keeping my car outside my home.

    Please do not send me GP's contact details in your reply or refer me to their spurious appeals system or to that of the Independent Appeals Service. I am writing to you as the landowner and my landlord.

    I have contacted Mickey by email several times about this issue. I asked that Mickey intervene with GP to get the PCNs cancelled and that my car's VRM be added to a whitelist to stop further harassment. My most recent correspondence was with AB, Housing Services Manager. She stated that the reason for the introduction of a parking scheme was that you want to ensure residents can use the car park without problems. I am a resident. I consider 4 invoices demanding payment of £400 total if not paid within 14 days for using that same carpark a problem.

    Finally, Ms B referred me back to GP and stated that they were operating with Mickey's permission. Morally I find Mickey's tacit support of GP's rapacious, and deeply cynical, misuse of the purpose for which they were engaged repugnant.

    Please acknowledge receipt of this letter to the address above within 15 working days.

    Thanks for all links supplied and to the work of LoadsofChildren123 and Parking Prankster.
  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 41,357 Forumite
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    Nice letter. Will keenly await seeing their response. Just one point for you to consider a small (but large!) addition:
    I will vigorously defend any court action GP bring against me and I will not hesitate to issue a counter claim.
    ....... and further will not hesitate in joining Mickey in that counter claim.
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • scrib2074
    scrib2074 Posts: 25 Forumite
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    Umkomaas wrote: »
    Nice letter. Will keenly await seeing their response. Just one point for you to consider a small (but large!) addition:


    ....... and further will not hesitate in joining Mickey in that counter claim.

    Me too with the response. Thanks, I had considered adding this. I'm still mulling it over but I think I'd like to see first whether the HA chooses a conciliatory or an antagonistic response style. They also probably did not comply with the consultation part of the tenancy agreement given the fees and charges the PPC have introduced. So I'd like to hold onto a couple of aces and just see if I can get them to show their hand before going all crazy legal on them.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,777 Forumite
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    edited 20 May 2017 at 2:14PM
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    I am not keen on the first line, which negates the entire letter:
    This letter is not an official complaint according to Mickey's complaint procedures. I reserve the right to use those complaint procedures if my concerns are not addressed.


    Can you not say:
    This letter is a complaint but I am giving you a fair chance to address the matter informally. I have serious concerns about the imposition of terms which are not compatible with my existing parking rights under my tenancy agreement, which pre-dates the third party signs now in the car park. I would like to remind you of the doctrine applying to property, that 'a grantor must not derogate from his grant' - i.e. that you cannot offer unfettered parking rights with one hand in 2010, then take away that free offer and replace it with extremely onerous terms (allowing an ex-clamper firm to maraud through the site, targeting residents' cars) on the other hand, now.

    Should my concerns not be satisfactorily addressed I will not hesitate to escalate the matter using your official complaints procedure. However, I am hoping that reason will be applied under the circumstances and that you have not signed a contracting allowing your parking agent to dictate matters regarding your own tenants, given that you are the principal and remain liable for their actions.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • scrib2074
    scrib2074 Posts: 25 Forumite
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    Coupon-mad, thanks for your feedback

    I have to keep Mickey's official complaints procedure as a last resort. They cannot address the matter informally if I make an official complaint. Also, as soon as it's an official complaint that's my one chance on the issue with them, next stop the ombudsman.

    I'm guessing they would want to avoid using the official complaints procedure as much as I would, one of the reasons I say that. If the results from this are unsatisfactory I can just resend the letter and say it is an official complaint. They will be forewarned but I will get to look "reasonable" so it balances out. Invoking the procedure would also be an official complaint against their property services manager and I don't wish to do that, she's misguided but I don't want her investigated. Not that I think her job would be in any danger from an internal investigation.

    Should I need to escalate may I borrow the phrase "allowing an ex-clamper firm to maraud through the site, targeting residents' cars"? It's awesome :T
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