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Leasehold extension advice

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  • always_sunny
    always_sunny Posts: 8,314 Forumite
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    techno12 wrote: »
    I made an informal offer to the freeholder last year, via the managing agent at the time, at around 60% of what the online calculators said. There were only 61 years left so I was pretty keen to see it through.

    He accepted it (I had to pay both sets of solicitors' fees, though no valuation was required so I saved a bit there).

    The terms were +99 years and the ground rent as is (currently £60 per annum, will double to £120 in 29 years and stay at that level for the remainder).

    Happy enough with that, though not with my solicitor, who was useless and still hasn't sent any documentation through. I had to pay my £3 to the Land Registry the other day to see if it had gone through and to get 'something in writing' - we completed last September but I was advised to leave it 6 months due to delays in processing lease extensions at the LR.

    Thank you - so you just sent them a letter etc and do the usual waiting?
    Did you have to inform the lender about your intention to extend the lease informally? I was reading that when extending via statutory route there's no need to, though not sure about the informal route.

    My GR is £1 so keen to keep that way!
    EU expat working in London
  • always_sunny
    always_sunny Posts: 8,314 Forumite
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    instead of creating a new thread I will recycle my old one!

    I have decided that I would like to get in touch with the freeholder and ask for a leasehold extension on my flat, though because I don't qualify for the statutory route, I will need to approach them informally.

    Advice from experienced people is very welcome, I understand that as I do it informally the freeholder could take me for a ride and propose something that is not advantageous for me. I can say no.

    Am I better to use an experience valuator to do the negotiation or just approach the freeholder and make an offer? (Worst case I can say no and then wait to use the statutory route)
    Thank you
    EU expat working in London
  • eddddy
    eddddy Posts: 16,449 Forumite
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    Am I better to use an experience valuator to do the negotiation or just approach the freeholder and make an offer? (Worst case I can say no and then wait to use the statutory route)

    There's no harm in approaching the freeholder. Have others in the block extended their leases? If so what did they pay?

    The fees for Statutory Lease extensions can be much higher than Informal Lease extensions.

    If others have got Statutory Lease Extensions, one approach could be to offer slightly more than they paid (for the same terms) - because the saving in fees would still reduce the overall cost.
  • always_sunny
    always_sunny Posts: 8,314 Forumite
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    eddddy wrote: »
    There's no harm in approaching the freeholder. Have others in the block extended their leases? If so what did they pay?

    The fees for Statutory Lease extensions can be much higher than Informal Lease extensions.

    If others have got Statutory Lease Extensions, one approach could be to offer slightly more than they paid (for the same terms) - because the saving in fees would still reduce the overall cost.

    We are only 2 flats and I have non idea about the other flat, I believe it's tenanted but I barely see them. I would like to keep the term of my current lease and ground rent as £1. I know the freeholder offered a fair premium to the previous owners though wanted increased ground rent.

    Actually, when I went to see most flats around where I bought, most of them (if not all) had £250+ GR so I must assume they must have done informal extensions?
    EU expat working in London
  • always_sunny
    always_sunny Posts: 8,314 Forumite
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    Also, would I need to inform my lender before doing any negotiations?
    EU expat working in London
  • eddddy
    eddddy Posts: 16,449 Forumite
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    Also, would I need to inform my lender before doing any negotiations?

    You don't have to inform them that you are going to start negotiating, but you will probably need their consent before extending.

    The only issue they are likely to have is the ground rent.

    You could try asking your lender in advance what their guidelines are on acceptable ground rents, to save you negotiating a deal which they then reject.

    (Their concern will be that a high/increasing ground rent might reduce the value of the property or affect it's saleability.)
  • Irratus_Rusticus
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    Hi,

    If you are going the informal route be aware it is a minefield. So best to have some idea of the statutory formula. You obviously know variables are subject to expert valuation. Some data you know. Here is method wiv example data (Spreadsheet essential - use liberal cell referencing to save fingers):-

    1. Example Data and variables:

    Lease commencement date:....25/03/1987
    Original term:........99 years
    2nd GR period start...24/03/2020
    3rd GR period start...24/03/2053
    1st GR pa ... £40
    2nd GR pa ... £60
    3rd GR pa ... £80
    Yield on GR... 8%
    Discount Rate .5%
    Term now in years...70
    Present value... £100,000
    Savills 2016 relativity % ... 87.40%
    Uplifted value ..£114,416

    2. Present value of ground rent:

    1st GR payable for 4 years
    2nd GR payable for 33 years
    3rd GR payable for 33 years

    PV(GR1): £132.49 [ -PV(8/100,4,40) ]
    PV(GR2): £507.78 [ -PV(8/100,33,60)/POWER(1+(8/100),4) ]
    PV(GR3): £53.41 [ -PV(8/100,33,80)/POWER(1+(8/100),4+33) ]

    Total PV of ground rent: £693.68


    3. Dimunition of freeholder's interest:

    Term (PV of ground rent ) ..............£694
    Reversion (PV of uplifted flat value) £3760 [ -PV(5/100,70,,114416) ]
    Less reversion at end of new term: .... £-47 [ PV(5/100,70+90,,114416) ]

    Freeholder’s Interest: £4,408

    4. Freeholder’s share of Marriage Value:

    Leaseholder’s future interest: £114,416
    Subtract
    Leaseholder's present Interest: £100,000
    Freeholder's Investment interest: £4,408

    Marriage value: .... £10,009

    Freeholder’s 50% of marriage value: £5,004

    5. Premium for +90 years at peppercorn GR:

    Diminution of Freeholder’s Interest: ... £4,408
    Freeholder’s share of marriage value: .. £5,004

    Total premium (excl fees)................£9,412


    Recent case law liked Savills relativity graphs (others are available) so download and apply to your term.

    All above for formula illustration only! Subject to actual valuations and local conditions and ultimately agreement with the freeholder. Run figures as apply to you and you have some idea of the ballpark to negotiate. Jumping in blind can be costly.
  • always_sunny
    always_sunny Posts: 8,314 Forumite
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    What about calculating how much the freehold would be? It's 2 flats converted house so I guess I am 50% of the share? Is there a calculator for that? I tried searching for one and found like http://www.freehold-sale.co.uk/freehold-calculator/ but don't see so accurate.
    EU expat working in London
  • eddddy
    eddddy Posts: 16,449 Forumite
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    What about calculating how much the freehold would be? It's 2 flats converted house so I guess I am 50% of the share? Is there a calculator for that? I tried searching for one and found like http://www.freehold-sale.co.uk/freehold-calculator/ but don't see so accurate.

    The asking price of the freehold is whatever price the freeholder chooses. (Just like the asking price of your flat is whatever you choose.)

    You can ask the freeholder what price they would accept, or you can make an offer if you want. (Obviously, they might not accept your offer. They might not even bother replying.)

    The calculator you link to seems to be for a company that buys freeholds - it indicates how much they would be willing to pay.

    You could offer more than that company pays or less - it's up to you.
  • Irratus_Rusticus
    Irratus_Rusticus Posts: 198 Forumite
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    edited 12 October 2016 at 11:22PM
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    What about calculating how much the freehold would be? It's 2 flats converted house so I guess I am 50% of the share? Is there a calculator for that?

    Same as above except for both flats.

    As explained, you can't force sale of the freehold to one flat so the price is what the freeholder wants - not a wise deal.

    To force the sale of the freehold using the Leasehold Reform Housing & Urban Development Act 1993 (as amended) you need both flat owners to participate in Collective Enfranchisement and ensure your building qualifies. If the freeholder doesn't live in it the fact it is a conversion isn't an issue.

    Check the guidance on the Lease Advisory Service website as it is fairly intense.

    You have to pay for the freeholder's costs too once the Initial Notice is served, so get all professional advice/valuation ducks quacking in tune before you start.

    The formula is as I gave above - except both flats need to be valued for their term of lease etc. They both share the professional fees.

    For each flat: you need the remaining term and the periods for each ground rent increment as stated in the lease (you say £1 but for how long?). You then need a professional valuation of the present value of both flats. (For now you can guess but that won't cut it). You then need a future valuation of what the flat would be worth after the deal: the 'uplifted' market value. Use the Savills 2016 relativity graph tho' be aware the graph is not binding on the freeholder. Google "pdf.euro.savills.co.uk/uk/residential.../leasehold-enfranchisement-june-2016" for the free pdf and check the table for your lease term.

    All you need then is a yield rate for the ground rent (use 8% for estimate) and a discount rate (use 5%).

    To make it even easier for you, here is the above statutory formula without frills - just stick it into a spreadsheet in one single column using the following cell references and your data for each flat (if the GR goes up more than three times you need a bigger formula!) (you might need semi colons instead of commas)...

    a1: The remaining term in years
    a2: First ground payable for in years
    a3: Second ground rent payable in years
    a4: Third ground rent payable in years
    a5: First GR increment in pounds
    a6: Second ground rent payable in pounds
    a7: Third ground rent payable in pounds

    (All above from the lease, now it gets interesting)...

    a8: 8 {This is the yield rate as an integer}
    a9: 5 {This is the discount rate as an integer}
    a10: Present market value in pounds
    a11: Savills 2016 relativity % for your remaining term
    a12: =(A10/(A11*100))*100
    a13: =-PV(A8/100,A2,A5)
    a14: =-PV(A8/100,A3,A6)/POWER(1+(A8/100),A2)
    a15: =-PV(A8/100,A4,A7)/POWER(1+(A8/100),A2+A3)
    a16: =SUM(A13 : A15)
    a17: =-PV(A9/100,A1,,A12)
    a18: =PV(A9/100,A1+90,,A12)
    a19: =SUM(A16 : A18)
    a20: =(A12-A10-A19)/2
    a21: =A19+A20


    [ a21 reports the premium per flat. Obviously not guaranteed. Fees on top. ]

    The beauty of knowing the formula is that you can get a tighter estimated premium than online generalisations - just change the market values to see how these affect the premium. The freeholder will want the highest uplifted value and the lowest current value to max out the marriage value share. That's why you need a good local valuer.
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