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ParkingEye @ ASDA, Brighton Marina - POPLA help please!

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245

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  • The_Deep
    The_Deep Posts: 16,830 Forumite
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    As far as I knew it was free parking there,


    Free parking, in Brighton, in Rip Off Britain? What on earth made you think that?
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 41,355 Forumite
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    I am going to go back to the car park when it's dark later in the week and take some more photos to show exactly how poor the signage is
    Sorry if this is obvious, but some people do mess this up - make sure the flash on your camera is switched to 'off' and you take your shots at approximately the same time as the parking event.

    You will need to factor in that clocks have gone forward and the fact that after 21 December there is a daily gain in available light (15 mins a week I think).
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • sidvinnon
    sidvinnon Posts: 26 Forumite
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    The_Deep wrote: »
    As far as I knew it was free parking there,
    Free parking, in Brighton, in Rip Off Britain? What on earth made you think that?

    Believe it or not there are still some places that you can park for free, even on the street. ASDA car park used to be one of those.
  • sidvinnon
    sidvinnon Posts: 26 Forumite
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    Umkomaas wrote: »
    Sorry if this is obvious, but some people do mess this up - make sure the flash on your camera is switched to 'off' and you take your shots at approximately the same time as the parking event.

    You will need to factor in that clocks have gone forward and the fact that after 21 December there is a daily gain in available light (15 mins a week I think).

    Yeah I won't be using the flash, I had already thought of that but thanks for the tip. It will be about 2 hours later, which should be very similar lighting conditions.
  • sidvinnon
    sidvinnon Posts: 26 Forumite
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    One thing i am a bit unsure about is whether I can legally take a photo from my car.

    The government website states:

    'When you can use a hand-held phone
    You can use a hand-held phone if either of these apply:

    you’re safely parked...'

    So it looks like I'll have to stop and turn my engine off at the entrance to the car park before I can take a picture of the sign there, don't know if that counts as safely parked though!
  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 41,355 Forumite
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    Can you get someone to travel with you to do the camera work?
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • sidvinnon
    sidvinnon Posts: 26 Forumite
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    I've written my appeal, would anyone mind having a quick look over it before I send it please?

    I've uploaded it as a PDF here:

    https://ufile.io/qp4xl

    Thanks :)
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,747 Forumite
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    You don't need a covering letter and won't be posting it to London. Not even sure the address is right but anyway we always say people must upload their POPLA appeals under 'other' on the POPLA appeals site as a PDF. Never by post.

    I would remove your second picture of the signs because you can read clearly '2 hours max stay' and your first pic is far better.

    I didn't see anything added about the fact this is a new site for PE, because Smart were kicked out only a while ago and so PE have failed to add extra signs to tell locals that the regime and rules and parking firm, the entire 'contract' is not as it was a few months ago.

    I didn't see this (sorry if it was buried there!):

    'The driver had absolutely no idea there were restrictions in place in the car park! The driver has been using it for years, primarily in the dark when also visiting a restaurant and/or going to the cinema and not once has the driver noticed any signs, neither has the driver's girlfriend.'

    Here are 2 points I used in a POPLA appeal about this car park, that I submitted for a fellow Albion fan last year and PE threw in the towel. So read, edit if necessary and add these:

    4) This is a very new car park for ParkingEye. No extra signs warning of new restrictions (BPA breach) and no advertising consent for these new signs.

    Until a few months ago, I find from researching this site, that Asda used Smart Parking then cancelled that contract. There were no extra signs warning locals that the previous rules and restrictions had changed. This is a requirement of the BPA CoP and this operator ignored it.

    Further, as this was such a new site I contend that ParkingEye were ticketing without Local Authority Advertising Consent. I can find no Planning Application for their signs on the Brighton & Hove Planning Register and this suggests they are operating contrary to the law:

    http://ww3.brighton-hove.gov.uk/index.cfm?request=c1199915&action=SearchByFilter


    5) Breach of the BPA Code of Practice on ANPR – DPA and CPUTRs breach.

    It is submitted that this charge was not properly given because it breaches the BPA Code of Practice regarding ANPR. The signs fail to inform a driver what the ANPR data will be used for, which is a ‘misleading omission’ in consumer law and a Data Protection breach.

    The driver had no idea that secret camera data would later be used against him to bind him to a charge he knew nothing about and did not agree to. The driver believed any cameras were there for security at the Marina, due to the lack of any other information (a black icon showing a camera communicates nothing and there was no such information anywhere in sight in the dark, in any case).

    Failure to tell a driver how the data will be used is a ‘misleading omission’ of a material fact – prohibited by The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008:

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2008/9780110811574/regulation/3
    ’’Prohibition of unfair commercial practices’’: 3.—
    (1) Unfair commercial practices are prohibited.
    (2) Paragraphs (3) and (4) set out the circumstances when a commercial practice is unfair.
    (4) A commercial practice is unfair if—
    (a) it is a misleading action under the provisions of regulation 5;
    (b) it is a misleading omission under the provisions of regulation 6; ‘’

    I have shown that ParkingEye have failed the above tests by:

    - installing cameras without information and warnings about the commercial purpose of the data collection;
    - beginning a new enforcement/ticketing regime without extra signs to tell local drivers who may reasonably expect the old regime to be continuing;
    - beginning a new enforcement/ticketing regime without Advertising/Planning Consent;

    All of the above are ‘misleading actions’ and ‘misleading omissions’ of material facts, a series of commercial practices which are unconscionable and unfair. Even a BPA breach (and certainly DPA and Planning Consent breaches) render a charge under these circumstances ‘prohibited’, unrecoverable and therefore, not properly given:

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2008/9780110811574/regulation/5

    (3) A commercial practice satisfies the conditions of this paragraph if— (b) it concerns any failure by a trader to comply with a commitment contained in a code of conduct which the trader has undertaken to comply with, if
    (i) the trader indicates in a commercial practice that he is bound by that code of conduct, and
    (ii) the commitment is firm and capable of being verified and is not aspirational, and it causes or is likely to cause the average consumer to take a transactional decision he would not have taken otherwise, taking account of its factual context and of all its features and circumstances.
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  • sidvinnon
    sidvinnon Posts: 26 Forumite
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    Thanks very much for the reply, I'll go back and edit it based on your recommendations.

    Did you go to the game? What a day! Here's a nice video montage of the days events if you haven't seen it already - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA672U-87gk&app=desktop - goosebumps! :)
  • sidvinnon
    sidvinnon Posts: 26 Forumite
    edited 26 May 2017 at 4:24PM
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    So I got an email from POPLA saying PE had submitted their 'evidence', they didn't send it to me though. I told POPLA this and asked for a delay to the decision whilst I tried to get it. POPLA replied today saying I should be able to download it from their portal, I provided them with a screen grab to demonstrate there was no way of doing this, so they eventually sent me the full PDF file.

    Here is a link to the PDF:
    https://wetransfer.com/downloads/639bca5d2e5a7ba37a271b7b5d27964120170526144006/a755d9

    I've had a look through and there are a number of things I feel I should counter on, they are as follows:

    One of their photos is misleading or possibly fake, they show a sign at the entrance that didn't exist on the evening in question. The only sign at the entrance is the one in my appeal, high up and unnoticeable, they obviously chose not to include that one though. Even their overhead site map shows there is only one sign at the entrance. From looking at Google maps which has images from Oct 2015, it shows a Smart Parking sign at the lower location spanning 2 poles. I presume after taking over the site, PE attached this sign to one of the poles leaving the other one bare, but later removed both poles and put the entrance sign up high, as it is now.

    All of their photos are from July 2016 and in broad daylight, this doesn't exactly give a fair representation of the conditions of the evening in question.

    Their site map backs up that the route taken to where the car was parked does not pass any signs that show a charge amount or any terms.

    Their signage images clearly show how small and hard to read the terms and conditions are. How is someone supposed to be able to read those, in the dark, when the sign is 15 feet off the ground?

    The witness statement is not signed. According to LinkedIn there is someone called Antony Wilson who works for ASDA and has a role to do with parking - 'Car Park Strategy and Development' - but his role on the 'Witness Statement' is 'Asset replacement manager'.

    There is no response to my point titled 'This is a very new car park for ParkingEye. No extra signs warning of new restrictions (BPA breach) and no advertising consent for these new signs.', therefore they must be conceding that they broke the law.

    No response to 'So, for this appeal, I put this operator to strict proof of where the car was parked and (from photos taken in the same lighting conditions) how their signs appeared on that date, at that time, from the angle of the driver's perspective. Equally, I require this operator to show how the entrance signs appear from a driver's seat, not stock examples of 'the sign' in isolation/close-up. I submit that full terms simply cannot be read from a car before parking and mere 'stock examples' of close-ups of the (alleged) signage terms will not be sufficient to disprove this.'

    I am going to send back their own site plan with a diagram of the route leading to where the car was parked, this should demonstrate the ridiculous lack of signage available.

    I would like to take a photo proving that their lower height entrance sign doesn't exist, although I presume POPLA will discount it because it would be classed as new evidence :(

    I'll be emailing a PDF instead of using the online form.

    Can anyone spot any more counter-arguments I could make or just general advice please?

    I have until the 2nd June to respond.

    Thanks!
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