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Extortionate Ground Rent clauses in leasehold

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  • davidmcn
    davidmcn Posts: 23,596 Forumite
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    anselld wrote: »
    Someone has to own, manage and maintain the building in situations where there are multiple properties within a building.

    If fairness, who is going to do that in your non-profit world?
    There isn't a need for the common areas of a building to be in separate ownership, or for that ownership to be regarded as a profitable enterprise in its own right. It would be possible for the owners of the flats to own those areas in common (if anybody bothered to reform the relevant bits of English law), and (if they wish) to engage a management company to administer the maintenance etc on their behalf - obviously that bit requires a profit margin but it can be a transparent management charge on top of actual disbursements.
  • anselld
    anselld Posts: 8,303 Forumite
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    davidmcn wrote: »
    There isn't a need for the common areas of a building to be in separate ownership, or for that ownership to be regarded as a profitable enterprise in its own right. It would be possible for the owners of the flats to own those areas in common (if anybody bothered to reform the relevant bits of English law), and (if they wish) to engage a management company to administer the maintenance etc on their behalf - obviously that bit requires a profit margin but it can be a transparent management charge on top of actual disbursements.

    Already possible in most cases under the Leasehold Reform Act 1967 and the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act 2002. Right to buy freehold, right to manage, etc, etc.
  • Freecall
    Freecall Posts: 1,306 Forumite
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    In fairness though the government should intervene further to make freeholder not profitable at all cause essentially they are nothing but middle men.

    I don't get the middle men bit at all.

    As the owners of freeholds, our tenants (leaseholders) pay us ground rent. Although it gives a relatively small return it forms part of a balanced investment portfolio.

    Scrap the return on investment and the value of the investment will fall to zero.

    I understand that in some political philosophies ownership of property is considered to be theft but even in your world where no one is allowed to own anything, I don't see how freeholders could be described as 'middle men'.
  • always_sunny
    always_sunny Posts: 8,314 Forumite
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    Freecall wrote: »
    I don't get the middle men bit at all.

    As the owners of freeholds, our tenants (leaseholders) pay us ground rent. Although it gives a relatively small return it forms part of a balanced investment portfolio.

    Scrap the return on investment and the value of the investment will fall to zero.

    I understand that in some political philosophies ownership of property is considered to be theft but even in your world where no one is allowed to own anything, I don't see how freeholders could be described as 'middle men'.

    What do Freeholders do? What benefit do they add to leaseholders?
    How come beside England and Wales pretty much no other country has them?

    They own the land (I assume) and the property (walls) and they get (with new reforms) peppercorn rent for long time. If there is upkeep required on the premises, they charge leaseholders.

    Freeholders don't really serve any purpose beside collecting small revenue.
    Flats with high ground rent are of course a money machine.
    EU expat working in London
  • always_sunny
    always_sunny Posts: 8,314 Forumite
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    anselld wrote: »
    Someone has to own, manage and maintain the building in situations where there are multiple properties within a building.

    If fairness, who is going to do that in your non-profit world?

    In the rest of the world, larger blocks have independent organisation running the upkeep of the whole building and charge back owners with a clear bills, etc. no need to have leases for x years.
    Owners are also representative and decide because they will foot the bill.

    Their purpose is to keep the building running and pay off their payroll, not to make profit.
    The person who buys the flat should own it!
    EU expat working in London
  • davidmcn
    davidmcn Posts: 23,596 Forumite
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    anselld wrote: »
    Already possible in most cases under the Leasehold Reform Act 1967 and the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act 2002. Right to buy freehold, right to manage, etc, etc.
    But still with this cumbersome separate leasehold/freehold structure. And new developments don't (typically) come with the freehold in the first place.
  • Chanes
    Chanes Posts: 882 Forumite
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    Houses should be sold as Freehold. The new leasehold houses seem to be a licence to print money. I know one person who bought a new house and was asked for £2,500 for permission to build a conservatory by the Freeholder. I think it was a Taylor Wimpey build and they sold off the Leases to an investment company. They enquired about buying the Freehold and after paying for the inquiry they were told £40,000.
  • jbainbridge
    jbainbridge Posts: 2,014 Forumite
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    The current problem seems to be leasehold houses which have excessive ground rent charges ... The owners are now finding that they are unable to sell them.
  • always_sunny
    always_sunny Posts: 8,314 Forumite
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    The current problem seems to be leasehold houses which have excessive ground rent charges ... The owners are now finding that they are unable to sell them.

    Flats as well. it's not uncommon to have flats with £300/year GR doubling every 10 or 20 years.
    I went to see a flat (newly converted) a while ago and between GR and SC was £1500/year for 1 bed! Why?
    EU expat working in London
  • wine_night
    wine_night Posts: 111 Forumite
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    It isn't always as clear cut as buying freehold vs buying leasehold. In some areas (for example city centres) there isn't sufficient freehold stock so if someone is looking to buy in that area chances are they will have to purchase a leasehold property (most likely a flat) along with the associated ground rent and service charges.

    City centre flat rents take into account the service charges and ground rent levied. Maintenance charges in some schemes are greater than others due to the presence of lifts, concierge services and gyms etc. They also provide buildings insurance and major structural repairs, upkeep of communal areas and so on. Consequently rents will be proportionally higher for these schemes than others. As an owner occupier you will pay for the privilege of having the facilities that these schemes provide, should you wish to have use of the on-site gym etc. Think of it as a service/convenience charge.

    The financial accounts are available for leaseholders which break down the charges for a particular scheme so the operations of a management company is a transparent process.

    While the leasehold model makes sense for large city centre flat schemes provided that the ground rent rise clauses are not onerous, I see no reason for new-build house to be anything but freehold and I suspect that this bundling up and selling of off freeholds to investment companies is just a way to boost the house-builders' profits.
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