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Public Sewers in Garden

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  • Rosy_Apple
    Rosy_Apple Posts: 152 Forumite
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    EachPenny wrote: »
    They also tend to know very little about drains and sewers ;)

    Have you actually established that these manhole covers are on public sewers? Just because there is a manhole, which may be for a drain, doesn't mean it is a public sewer.

    My own experience, which was some years ago so things might have changed, is that 'building over' only relates to structures which are not readily removable to gain access to the sewer if it needs repair work. Digging through a patio to gain access to a pipe wouldn't be any different to digging through a driveway.

    The thing that will upset water companies is if you cover a manhole, for example with paving slabs, even if the slabs aren't fixed in place with concrete. Locating a buried manhole, especially in an emergency is not an easy job, and due to the liabilities of flood damage, the water companies will want to be able to do that very quickly.

    Another factor is the change in working techniques over the years. Unless the sewer is very shallow, then these days it is likely a repair will be carried out by a technique that doesn't involve digging - digging holes is fraught with health and safety issues, and the material dug out has to be disposed of which means landfill tax. A deepish public sewer will often be repaired by relining or 'pipe-bursting' from the nearest manhole. It is quicker and cheaper to do it that way, so digging up people's patios and driveways will be the last option chosen in many circumstances.

    You also need to consider the cost of the work required. Assuming it was necessary to break up the patio to get to the sewer then £400 is going to cover a good proportion (perhaps all) the additional cost of the work that Thames Water may need to do in future because of the patio. You could pay out £400 to insure against a theoretical risk of work being done at some point in the future which may cost less than you are paying to get the insurance. (obviously you need to weigh up these risks when you make a decision)

    The things I would do are:
    1) Establish ownership of the drains/sewers (the local authority should have this information if the solicitor doesn't, and if they don't I would be considering changing solicitor!)
    2) Find out the size of the pipe and the pipe depths (as above)

    If the pipes are public sewers (owned by TW) and they are more than 5" (125mm) in diameter and are more than about 2 feet (600mm) deep then you will need to contact TW to confirm the situation if you remain concerned.

    If they aren't owned by Thames Water then they probably belong to the house (and possibly neighbour) so you can lay whatever patios, paths, drives etc you like over the top of them. (but please keep the manholes clear :))


    Thank you - we know the drains are owned by TW, I am not sure on the size of them at this point.

    The issue is that if we call TW and identify ourselves, we can't buy the insurance policy anyway as it would render it invalid (according to the Solicitors).

    I think I will have to try calling again and present a hypothetical situation and see what they think.
  • Doozergirl
    Doozergirl Posts: 33,813 Forumite
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    You need to call them. You can give your name - they're trying to help you. It's the house you don't want to identify. Don't panic!!
    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
  • Doozergirl
    Doozergirl Posts: 33,813 Forumite
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    edited 15 May 2017 at 10:57PM
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    Virtually all sewers are under ownership of the water companies now.

    The only ones that are private are where your house is the first and/or only house on the run to the mains sewer, usually located in the street. You can tell because the first inspection chamber from your house on your land will only have one inlet - yours.

    As soon as anyone's private drain crosses into someone else's land, they become 'public'. Often, if you can see three or more connections in your inspection chamber (neighbour's, yours and the pipe all the waste disappears off downstream in), they'll be public. You just need to trace where each branch comes and goes from.
    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
  • EachPenny
    EachPenny Posts: 12,239 Forumite
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    Not really relevant to the OP as she has established the pipes are TW's, but a few extra bits of information to help anyone reading this in the future.

    It is important to understand the difference between 'drain' and 'sewer' - they aren't the same thing. If you aren't sure which you have, check the definitions on a reliable website.
    Doozergirl wrote: »
    Virtually all sewers are under ownership of the water companies now.

    The only ones that are private are where your house is the first and/or only house on the run to the mains sewer, usually located in the street. You can tell because the first inspection chamber from your house on your land will only have one inlet - yours.

    Most private sewers were transferred to the water companies, but that only affected the sections of pipework which are shared by more than one property. If you are the uppermost property on a run of pipes connecting to a main sewer, then the pipework in your property remains a private drain. However the same applies to the connecting pipes from the other houses to the shared (now public) sewer. If the pipe only serves one property then is is probably a private drain. Private drains only serving one property may become a 'lateral drain' when they cross a property boundary (e.g. into the road) when they become the responsibility of the water company.
    Doozergirl wrote: »
    As soon as anyone's private drain crosses into someone else's land, they become 'public'. Often, if you can see three or more connections in your inspection chamber (neighbour's, yours and the pipe all the waste disappears off downstream in), they'll be public. You just need to trace where each branch comes and goes from.

    There are exceptions to this. I think the definition is that the drain still has to 'communicate' with a public sewer for it to become public. So for example if your drain crosses into your neighbours garden and then into a ditch it will remain a private drain. The same applies to shared drains which don't communicate with a public sewer.

    Unfortunatley the number of connections in an inspection chamber doesn't give a reliable guide to ownership. One household can have several pipes entering an inspection chamber. Especially in the 1930's it was common for drains from toilets to be kept separate from sinks and baths so multiple pipes could connect even to the first inspection chamber. It is also possible for a public sewer to have only one inlet and one outlet, and in many areas it was a requirement to have an 'interceptor chamber' before the connection to the main sewer in the road. If connected to more than one property these interceptors will be one in-one out inspection chambers on a public sewer. There is no hard and fast rule :(
    "In the future, everyone will be rich for 15 minutes"
  • Doozergirl
    Doozergirl Posts: 33,813 Forumite
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    I think I covered most of that in different language; talking about being the first or only house going to the mains sewer, using the word 'usually' and suggesting people trace back!
    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
  • Rosy_Apple
    Rosy_Apple Posts: 152 Forumite
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    Doozergirl wrote: »
    You need to call them. You can give your name - they're trying to help you. It's the house you don't want to identify. Don't panic!!

    Thank you- it's crazy how the house buying process and Solicitor scare mongering can make you worry about everything!
  • Davesnave
    Davesnave Posts: 34,741 Forumite
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    Rosy_Apple wrote: »
    Thank you- it's crazy how the house buying process and Solicitor scare mongering can make you worry about everything!

    They had me thinking originally that it was something special for the vendors to have confessed it to a solicitor, How else would they know?

    I have in mind some foundations and a huge reinforced slab which a relative of mine was forced to install, when they discovered their car parking was sited over an ancient reservoir, long forgotten-about.
  • Rosy_Apple
    Rosy_Apple Posts: 152 Forumite
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    Hello all,

    Thanks for all your replies.

    I thought I would update this.

    I called Thames Water and don't think that the sewer indemnity insurance is required as the foundations are less than 1m thick. I informed my Solicitor of this but they have said they will have to tell our mortgage lender that we are not taking out the insurance and this will push our exchange date back whilst they wait to see if the lender is ok with this. They also suggested that we are 'opening a can of worms' and that this may prompt our lender to look into other details of the property too, they may also decide that they will not allow us the mortgage unless we take out the insurance. The person I spoke to said that this is a risk they wouldn't personally take. I am not even sure what else they could look into?!

    I now feel like I am in a position where I have no choice but to buy an insurance that we don't need. I realise that in the grand scheme of things the cost of this is a drop in the ocean compared to what we are spending but I can't help but resent spending over £350 on something irrelevant.

    I guess we just have to get on with it!
  • Doozergirl
    Doozergirl Posts: 33,813 Forumite
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    I'm astonished!
    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
  • Rosy_Apple
    Rosy_Apple Posts: 152 Forumite
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    Doozergirl wrote: »
    I'm astonished!

    I am glad I am not the only one who thinks this whole situation is bizarre. I can't understand how a patio affects lending...
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