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UKPC Rejected Appeal should I appeal to POPLA

Please could anyone give me some advice on what to do here.

I parked in a 3 hours free carpark where you need to display a ticket from the machine. My ticket slipped down the windscreen and so it was not fully on display (you could only see the end part). Low and behold I've ended up with a £100 fine.
I sent a copy of my ticket to UKPC but they rejected my appeal as my ticket was not "clearly displayed".
Now I can either pay a reduced fine of £60 or appeal to POPLA, but I'm not sure whether they will also reject my appeal?

Thanks.
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Comments

  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,287 Forumite
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    edited 12 October 2016 at 7:33PM
    Have you missed reading 'NEWBIES READ THESE FAQs FIRST' and 'POPLA Decisions' (which has POPLA appeal points as templates in the penultimate page from post #2340 or so). They are sticky threads, stuck at the top of this forum you posted on, for reading first.

    Have you searched this board for 'UKPC POPLA' to see all the recent ones in progress? It is NOT a matter pf appealing about what happened.

    Did you admit who was driving? Did you appeal online and choose 'driver' or did you carefully choose 'registered keeper' as we advise here?

    DO NOT RUSH POPLA OR YOU WILL LOSE.
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  • Fruitcake
    Fruitcake Posts: 58,217 Forumite
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    It is not a fine.

    Do you have a PoPLA code? If so, use it. If not, complain to the BPA.

    Of course you should appeal. Why would you want to pay a scammer?

    Did you appeal as keeper or did you give away the driver's details? It sounds like the latter unfortunately, which means you will have given away a valuable PoPLA appeal point.

    All is not lost. Read the Sticky thread for NEWBIES on how to beat these scammers, then draft your PoPLA appeal using the most recent successful appeals from the POPLA Decisions Sticky thread. There are loads there abut bearing UKPC, including driver appeals if they know who was driving.

    What happened when you complained to the landowner/retailer?
    I married my cousin. I had to...
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  • beamerguy
    beamerguy Posts: 17,587 Forumite
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    bezzer25uk wrote: »
    Please could anyone give me some advice on what to do here.

    I parked in a 3 hours free carpark where you need to display a ticket from the machine. My ticket slipped down the windscreen and so it was not fully on display (you could only see the end part). Low and behold I've ended up with a £100 fine.
    I sent a copy of my ticket to UKPC but they rejected my appeal as my ticket was not "clearly displayed".
    Now I can either pay a reduced fine of £60 or appeal to POPLA, but I'm not sure whether they will also reject my appeal?

    Thanks.

    At least the scammers UKPC acknowledged you had a ticket albiet it was not fully shown. How do you know that the so called warden did not rock your car to move the ticket ??

    You see, UKPC have already been caught out with their fakery so nobody trusts what they get up to next.

    Do not pay the scammers, get a POPLA code.
    Whilst POPLA appear not to be very intelligent, they are not scammers like UKPC. YOU PAID YOU HAVE THE TICKET TO PROVE
  • I've read through a few of the threads but I couldn't find a similar situation to mine. Unfortunately I had already given them my details as the driver when I appealed :(
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,287 Forumite
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    edited 12 October 2016 at 10:21PM
    You are not looking for a similar situation. The NEWBIES thread tells you the circumstances do not matter and POPLA is fairly generic.

    Show us the photos of the permit/signs please (they are on UKPC's website of course where you will have already seen them, as you would before appealing). As you can't post links, screenshot the photos of sign & permit 'close up' evidence and crop out any sight of your VRN.

    Then host the screenshots in Dropbox or tinypic etc, showing us the URL changed from http to hxxp. This is because you can't show working links yet. We want to find you some reasons to appeal and signage is a good point, as is the fact the permit was viewable....if the evidence photo is a bit duff!

    As I said, 'POPLA Decisions' has POPLA appeal points as templates in the penultimate page from post #2340 or so.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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  • hxxpdropbox.com/sh/5fws6v7y4f8xixm/AADQUfPjeQXQRsdHVHOyt3CVa?dl=0
  • I've also emailed who I think is the landowner to complain, as it says to do it the threads.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,287 Forumite
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    bezzer25uk wrote: »
    I've also emailed who I think is the landowner to complain, as it says to do it the threads.
    Good stuff. Always complain about this nasty industry!

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5fws6v7y4f8xixm/AADQUfPjeQXQRsdHVHOyt3CVa?dl=0

    Permit looks displayed on the dash but they've chosen to take a pic from an angle that includes the shaded edge of the windscreen. Typical. Had the person looked from straight on, in front of the car, they could have seen the permit in full, it seems? That is one POPLA argument.

    You have a very good argument about signage, seeing as they've put the lower sign in LARGE letters which makes the small print above even more unreadable by comparison and because of the height. there is no way you would know about £100 charge so you can't have accepted that offer nor that risk. You have to explain that well to POPLA but we have templates which cover it, can be tweaked just a bit and you would be there. We've said where to find those template POPLA points and other UKPC examples (read recent ones only please, this Summer, no older!). Show us your draft, you have 28 days from the rejection letter so ages to put this together.

    You are very welcome to use the templates in the penultimate page of 'POPLA Decisions', post #2341 onwards in that sticky thread at the top of this forum board. Come back and show us your handiwork, much is copy & paste so not as hard work as it sounds.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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  • Do you think this is good enough? Thanks for the help by the way and all the templates :)

    I am writing to appeal the PCN that I have received from UKPC on **/**/** at St Stephens Place, Trowbridge.

    1. I have a valid parking ticket at the time the PCN was issued, which was displayed on my dashboard (copy attached).

    2. I do not believe that UKPC has any proprietary interest in the land such that it has no standing to make contracts with drivers in its own right, or to pursue charges for breach in its own name. In the absence of such title, UKPC must have assignment of rights from the landowner to pursue charges for breach in their own right, including at Court level.

    I contend that UKPC merely holds a basic licence to supply and maintain signs and to issue 'tickets' as a deterrent to car park users. I therefore require UKPC to provide POPLA and me with an unredacted, contemporaneous copy of the contract that it holds with the landowner. This is required so that I may be satisfied that this contract permits UKPC to make contracts with drivers in its own right and provides it with full authority to pursue charges, including a right to pursue them in Court in its own name.

    For the avoidance of doubt, a witness statement to the effect that a contract is or was in place will not be sufficient to provide the necessary detail of the contract terms (such as revenue sharing, genuine intentions of these restrictions and charges, set amounts to charge for each stated contravention, etc.). A witness statement would not comply with section 7 of the BPA Code of Practice as the definition of the services provided would not be stated in such a vague template document.

    3. No Contract was entered into between the UKPC and the Driver or Registered keeper

    The signs at the car park in question are unsuitable to inform drivers of the full terms and conditions of what they are entering into by physically entering the car park. UKPC clearly relies on contract law, but does not do enough to make clear what the terms and conditions of the contract are, making it far too easy for people to unwittingly fall outside the terms of contract. It is not appropriate for a car park such as this to have such a limited amount of signs and rely on drivers to look carefully for where and how the terms are displayed.
    It is surely the responsibility of UKPC to make the terms of their contract far clearer so that drivers have no doubt whatsoever of any supposed contract they may be entering into. I require UKPC to provide evidence as to how clear the terms and conditions are and consider if the methods used are clear enough for this type of car park. I would specifically like them to look into how clear the signs are that inform drivers what the penalty charges are.

    Furthermore a contract can only be considered to be entered into if enough evidence exists that it actually happened. For a contract to have been entered into the driver would have had to get out of the car, read the signs, fully interpret and understand them and then agree to them.

    I request that UKPC provide concrete evidence that a contract existed between themselves and the driver on the day in question, which meets all the legal requirements of forming a contract. They should include specific things including, agreement from both parties, clarity and certainty of terms etc. If they are not met then the contract would be deemed “unfair” under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations 1999.

    4. The car park had unclear, non-obvious, non-bpa-compliant signage leading to the driver not being aware that a parking contract was being offered at the time (evening).

    As a POPLA assessor has said previously in an adjudication
    “Once an Appellant submits that the terms of parking were not displayed clearly enough, the onus is then on the Operator to demonstrate that the signs at the time and location in question were sufficiently clear”.

    The parking company needs to prove that the driver actually saw, read and accepted the terms, which means that I and the POPLA adjudicator would be led to believe that a conscious decision was made by the driver to park in exchange for paying the extortionate fixed amount that UKPC is now demanding.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,287 Forumite
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    You are getting there but no rush, that's old and the wording is weaker than we have here now.

    I can tell that's based on an old hand-me-down appeal because the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations 1999 was superseded over a year ago. Also the points are weak templates - as I said there are longer, recently-written ones in POPLA Decisions, post #2341 onwards.

    The deliberately long 'unclear signage' argument I wrote 3 weeks ago in the templates in POPLA Decisions is very much suited to your case and the 'no landowner authority' point in that sticky thread has more detail than the older one you have used.

    Your point #1 is fine (except do not 'attach' a copy of the permit). Instead, embed it in the actual word document appeal to illustrate what you say, there and then. Make the appeal look appealing to the Assessor, with pics! But you appear to have missed saying this:
    The permit was undoubtedly displayed on the dash and UKPC's own photo shows it:

    (embed photo of the permit showing through the windscreen, here)

    However, it is apparent that UKPC have deliberately chosen to take their photos from an inappropriate angle that includes the shaded edge of the windscreen, to make it appear it could not be read. Had the person looked from straight on facing the windscreen, in front of the car, they would have seen the 'ticket' in full, which after all was the permit that allowed 3 hours free and not a ticket that could in any way be hiding anything such as an underpayment. I did nothing wrong at all and am furious that the UKPC person took a photo at that misleading angle.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
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