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NEWBIES first appeal for any private parking ticket (England/Wales)
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There is of course a "Different way" for dealing with IPC windscreen tickets.
The above is very good for any BPA member ticket but if you have received a windscreen ticket from Any IPC member then please consult us further.
Depending on where you are with the ticket (ie notice to keeper, windscreen, or got a notice to keeper and you wish to declare a driver ) then please consult further0 -
Many thanks for the updated template Coupon Mad....but please forgive the expected question arising from this.....what about appeals that have already been submitted to PPCs using the previous template for PCNs issued after 13 June 2014? Will they still have the same degree of clout as this new one as, no doubt, a PPC won't accept a 2nd appeal from me using your updated version? I only submitted my PPC appeal to NCP yesterday in connection with a PCN issued on 15th September after following your advice to do so around the 21 day milestone.
Yes don't worry this doesn't undermine the clout of the previous appeal - what you may not know is that a month before the version you used, the first appeal in the Newbies thread was completely different from the short version. I have changed it about 4 times and the gist is the same and many PPCs just give up. If it ain't broke don't fix it, for cases already in hand it's fine that you used a version of this forum's appeal, and the whole point is to get a POPLA code anyway from a BPA member like NCP, without giving away the driver.
And we win at POPLA every single time using the previous version plus POPLA appeal, so you will win anyway. You are set to win at POPLA once you get a POPLA code - and if NCP play silly-devils and refuse to issue a POPLA code (as they have done before and the BPA didn't seem to care) then this gives you another weapon in your back pocket. You would complain to the BPA as per usual. And if they were useless and no POPLA code arrived you could turn to the regs I have quoted (they are easy to read, I just did and am just a normal middle-aged wife/Mum and armchair lawyer) and copy the simple example of a 'Model Cancellation Form' (near the end), send it by a trackable/provable postal method or by email and tell them effectively to 'go swivel':
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/265898/consumer-contracts-information-cancellation-and-additional-payments-regulations-2013.pdf
IMHO - if a PPC wins at POPLA or IAS, and the parking event was from 13th June onwards, the person could try serving a notice of withdrawal to cancel the alleged contract which was foisted upon them.
Now this is untested but there's nothing to lose. Hence why it now forms a part of the new appeal letter and why you can use it later if you want to, and people who lose at IAS or POPLA could also serve such a notice (if the parking event was 13th June onwards).
For those rare cases that go to Court it would also add a defence point, IMHO, if the defendant had at some point served a withdrawal notice to cancel the contract which was never explained properly up front.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
Hi I am new to this and am looking for some help, I recently received a fine for pulling up in a dead end at robbin hood airport to answer my phone from the people who I was picking up for literally 2 mins they have taken 3 pictures of my car the 1st time is 9.00 pm and the last is 9.01 pm is this right and should I pay or appeal? thanks0
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Coupon-mad wrote: »Now this is untested but there's nothing to lose. Hence why it now forms a part of the new appeal letter and why you can use it later if you want to, and people who lose at IAS or POPLA could also serve such a notice (if the parking event was 13th June onwards).
And I've had legal advice that this text is workable - there can be no other reasonable interpretation of the regulations, and the directive it is based on explicitely mentions parking services.0 -
Hi I am new to this and am looking for some help, I recently received a fine for pulling up in a dead end at robbin hood airport to answer my phone from the people who I was picking up for literally 2 mins they have taken 3 pictures of my car the 1st time is 9.00 pm and the last is 9.01 pm is this right and should I pay or appeal? thanks
Welcome to the Forum!
You really need to copy and paste this into a new thread posting rather than adding it on to this thread. Once you've done this then provide info about who the company is that has issued the PCN but don't provide any personal identifying details such as car registration number etc.0 -
Coupon-mad wrote: »Yes don't worry this doesn't undermine the clout of the previous appeal - what you may not know is that a month before the version you used, the first appeal in the Newbies thread was completely different from the short version. I have changed it about 4 times and the gist is the same and many PPCs just give up. If it ain't broke don't fix it, for cases already in hand it's fine that you used a version of this forum's appeal, and the whole point is to get a POPLA code anyway from a BPA member like NCP, without giving away the driver.
And we win at POPLA every single time using the previous version plus POPLA appeal, so you will win anyway. You are set to win at POPLA once you get a POPLA code - and if NCP play
silly-devils and refuse to issue a POPLA code (as they have done before and the BPA didn't seem to care) then this gives you another weapon in your back pocket. You would complain to the BPA as per usual. And if they were useless and no POPLA code arrived you could turn to the regs I have quoted (they are easy to read, I just did and am just a normal middle-aged wife/Mum and armchair lawyer) and copy the simple example of a 'Model Cancellation Form' (near the end), send it by a trackable/provable postal method or by email and tell them effectively to 'go swivel':
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/265898/consumer-contracts-information-cancellation-and-additional-payments-regulations-2013.pdf
IMHO - if a PPC wins at POPLA or IAS, and the parking event was from 13th June onwards, the person could try serving a notice of withdrawal to cancel the alleged contract which was foisted upon them.
Now this is untested but there's nothing to lose. Hence why it now forms a part of the new appeal letter and why you can use it later if you want to, and people who lose at IAS or POPLA could also serve such a notice (if the parking event was 13th June onwards).
For those rare cases that go to Court it would also add a defence point, IMHO, if the defendant had at some point served a withdrawal notice to cancel the contract which was never explained properly up front.
just looking at our situation
it was from the 12th June, 2.5 hours before midnight
just our luck
eddy0 -
Awww bad luck eddy!PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
The Consumer Contracts side of this is an interesting area for discussion.
I defer to the superior legal knowledge of others, but this tactic raises a couple of questions in my mind.
1) The alleged transgression occurs before the motorist tries to withdraw from the (alleged) contract, and the contract is no longer in place since the motorist has already left the car park. The motorist is saying "I withdraw from the contract that was (allegedly) in place 29-56 days ago, at a point in time after I entered the car park but before the time of my (alleged) transgression". Can a cancellation really be permissible retrospectively, and after a contract has ceased to exist? It seems a little bizarre that the legislation would allow this. As others have said on other threads, you also have to wonder how a judge would view this ex post facto cancellation.
2) Is there any difference with a P&D car park? I would think the PPCs' argument that a contract has been created is somewhat stronger here, given that there is consideration passing from motorist to operator and that in general there are signs next to the P&D machines. In the wider world, I can see that there are cases where you would have opportunity to withdraw from a contract before payment, and in those cases it would be reasonable to assume that the Consumer Contract regulation applies. But can it realistically be applied after payment has been made (and the alleged contract has ended)? Isn't the act of payment a tacit acceptance of the contract and all its terms (provided that they are explained clearly and in full on the signs)?
3) The other argument that has been raised elsewhere and not properly answered (IMO) is that the appeal letter says - to paraphrase - "no contract exists but in any case I withdraw from the contract". This appears, to a layman such as myself, to significantly weaken the case that there was no contract. It's rather like Parking Eye's tactic at POPLA of "if you find it's not a GPEOL, then we would also like you to consider that it's commercially justified".
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All of which is said with the intention of furthering the discussion, rather than siding with or against anyone - C-m has clearly put in a lot of time researching this. As with any new arguments that are presented, they will be most effective when they are well-understood.0 -
The Consumer Contracts side of this is an interesting area for discussion.
I defer to the superior legal knowledge of others, but this tactic raises a couple of questions in my mind.
1) The alleged transgression occurs before the motorist tries to withdraw from the (alleged) contract, and the contract is no longer in place since the motorist has already left the car park. The motorist is saying "I withdraw from the contract that was (allegedly) in place 29-56 days ago, at a point in time after I entered the car park but before the time of my (alleged) transgression". Can a cancellation really be permissible retrospectively, and after a contract has ceased to exist? It seems a little bizarre that the legislation would allow this. As others have said on other threads, you also have to wonder how a judge would view this ex post facto cancellation.
The contract has not 'concluded' because the person has not paid. So they have 12 months and 14 days to send a cancellation notice, if a PPC contract can be considered a 'distance contract' (which is how I read it because I don't believe it's the other two, and a sign forms a contract 'at a distance' - i.e. at arm's length, not negotiated face to face).
2) Is there any difference with a P&D car park? I would think the PPCs' argument that a contract has been created is somewhat stronger here, given that there is consideration passing from motorist to operator and that in general there are signs next to the P&D machines. In the wider world, I can see that there are cases where you would have opportunity to withdraw from a contract before payment, and in those cases it would be reasonable to assume that the Consumer Contract regulation applies. But can it realistically be applied after payment has been made (and the alleged contract has ended)? Isn't the act of payment a tacit acceptance of the contract and all its terms (provided that they are explained clearly and in full on the signs)?
Contracts concluded (payment made) by electronic means are exempt from the regs, as I read it.
3) The other argument that has been raised elsewhere and not properly answered (IMO) is that the appeal letter says - to paraphrase - "no contract exists but in any case I withdraw from the contract". This appears, to a layman such as myself, to significantly weaken the case that there was no contract. It's rather like Parking Eye's tactic at POPLA of "if you find it's not a GPEOL, then we would also like you to consider that it's commercially justified".
Well it's pretty common in small claims defences I have seen, to deny the contract but then to say 'in the alternative, if the court should find the contract exists then it is unfair (or unenforceable) because...'
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All of which is said with the intention of furthering the discussion, rather than siding with or against anyone - C-m has clearly put in a lot of time researching this. As with any new arguments that are presented, they will be most effective when they are well-understood.
Yep this is an interesting discussion and I don't think I have all the answers by any means, and I am only a lay person with an 'armchair lawyer' vague interest in contract law as it affects PPCs. It would need testing in court, and higher. But IMHO the intention of Parliament, the Government and the EU is clear because the move in 2013/14 has been very much towards improving the rights of consumers (started by the EU in their Consumer Rights Directive).PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
Can I use this template I have a ticket from premier parking Exeter and I'm not sure if this template would apply to them ? I have tried to read and understand some of the advice on here but to be honest it's very confusing for me 🙈.0
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