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  • FIRST POST
    • Former MSE Helen
    • By Former MSE Helen 13th Nov 12, 10:58 AM
    • 2,324Posts
    • 971Thanks
    Former MSE Helen
    MSE News: Watchdogs investigate gas price 'manipulation'
    • #1
    • 13th Nov 12, 10:58 AM
    MSE News: Watchdogs investigate gas price 'manipulation' 13th Nov 12 at 10:58 AM
    "The FSA and Ofgem are looking into claims energy companies fiddled with wholesale gas prices, which could affect bills..."

Page 1
    • MikeR71
    • By MikeR71 13th Nov 12, 11:12 AM
    • 3,706 Posts
    • 4,364 Thanks
    MikeR71
    • #2
    • 13th Nov 12, 11:12 AM
    • #2
    • 13th Nov 12, 11:12 AM
    Well well, not quite the same thing, but I have to say I told you so:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4263599&highlight=
    • Treadmill
    • By Treadmill 13th Nov 12, 11:14 AM
    • 1,070 Posts
    • 973 Thanks
    Treadmill
    • #3
    • 13th Nov 12, 11:14 AM
    • #3
    • 13th Nov 12, 11:14 AM
    Any company's not raised prices yet ? This could discourage them for doing so for a while.
    • 2010
    • By 2010 13th Nov 12, 11:38 AM
    • 3,910 Posts
    • 3,163 Thanks
    2010
    • #4
    • 13th Nov 12, 11:38 AM
    • #4
    • 13th Nov 12, 11:38 AM
    In the mid 80`s Thatcher sold off all the energy companies and since then they`ve all been fiddling prices.

    So basically it`s taken the regulator 25 years to look into what everyone has known for years.

    You don`t seriously believe they`ll find anything ------------ do you?
    • pooch
    • By pooch 13th Nov 12, 11:41 AM
    • 687 Posts
    • 335 Thanks
    pooch
    • #5
    • 13th Nov 12, 11:41 AM
    • #5
    • 13th Nov 12, 11:41 AM
    If I understood the allegation correctly, it relates to a specific date (28th September) which is important since it is when most gas contracts are established when it is alleged the market was manipulated downwards

    It needs that to be first proven, and then further, that on other occasions the assumption that the market was manipulated upwards before people need to get too excited over these allegations.

    Otherwise, if anyone was to benefit from this, it would have only have been derivatives traders.
    Last edited by pooch; 13-11-2012 at 11:45 AM.
    • chanz4
    • By chanz4 13th Nov 12, 12:16 PM
    • 9,760 Posts
    • 2,831 Thanks
    chanz4
    • #6
    • 13th Nov 12, 12:16 PM
    • #6
    • 13th Nov 12, 12:16 PM
    one person said it, think of all the statments that are said about labour mps..... are they all true
    Don't put your trust into an Experian score - it is not a number any bank will ever use & it is generally a waste of money to purchase it. They are also selling you insurance you dont need.
  • grahamc2003
    • #7
    • 13th Nov 12, 1:09 PM
    • #7
    • 13th Nov 12, 1:09 PM
    Well well, not quite the same thing, but I have to say I told you so:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4263599&highlight=
    Originally posted by MikeR71
    Well, not only not quite the same thing, but nothing at all like you postulated, which was

    I just wondered, is anyone still in doubt that the big energy companies get together and fix prices across the board? Only this can explain the fact that they increase their prices all around the same time while still making millions in profits.

    The energy trade reporter who brought the accusation of price fixing, iirc from the tv news last night, didn't mention price fixing by energy companies, but fixing by other traders by entering 'phantom' trades at critical times (i.e. altering the spot price at a time when that spot price was used as a basis for energy prices based upon it). It looks to me that only the traders themselves or the financial outfits they work for would gain by such manipulation - indeed, the mse report says it's unclear whether consumers actually gained or lost by that manipulation
    • oldskoo1
    • By oldskoo1 13th Nov 12, 1:12 PM
    • 592 Posts
    • 501 Thanks
    oldskoo1
    • #8
    • 13th Nov 12, 1:12 PM
    • #8
    • 13th Nov 12, 1:12 PM
    Either way we are still very unlikely to see a significant fall in prices. If anything prices will go up to "cover" the cost of the mammoth fines being dished out.

    if it's true...
    • Pincher
    • By Pincher 13th Nov 12, 1:49 PM
    • 5,343 Posts
    • 1,906 Thanks
    Pincher
    • #9
    • 13th Nov 12, 1:49 PM
    • #9
    • 13th Nov 12, 1:49 PM
    How much could the manipulation have added to the bill?

    I am usually on a cheap deal, so it's a little unlikely I have been ripped off.

    The best outcome would be a blanket £100 credit for every year with a supplier. In this dream, I would get £800 from E.On.
    What happens if you push this button?
    • undaunted
    • By undaunted 13th Nov 12, 2:17 PM
    • 1,858 Posts
    • 961 Thanks
    undaunted
    I have little faith in either Ofgem or the FSA finding anything (it would probably be more convenient not to!) or bills falling as a result but time will tell.
  • Plushchris
    In this dream, I would get £800 from E.On.
    Originally posted by Pincher
    Keep dreaming..

    Its always nice to have dreams..
    Missing Tesco R&R since Feb '07 & now a "Tesco veteran" apparently!
    • Pincher
    • By Pincher 13th Nov 12, 3:03 PM
    • 5,343 Posts
    • 1,906 Thanks
    Pincher
    Keep dreaming..

    Its always nice to have dreams..
    Originally posted by Plushchris
    If my dream came true, you would do quite well out of it as well.

    If George Osborne's dream came true, and gets the fine money, he won't share it with you.

    So, all together now: I have a dream.......
    What happens if you push this button?
    • LardyCake
    • By LardyCake 13th Nov 12, 4:50 PM
    • 276 Posts
    • 131 Thanks
    LardyCake
    ... It looks to me that only the traders themselves or the financial outfits they work for would gain by such manipulation - indeed, the mse report says it's unclear whether consumers actually gained or lost by that manipulation
    Originally posted by grahamc2003
    It doesn't really matter if it is the the energy companies, banks or traders who are gaining. What really matters is that the "market" is being manipulated by whatever organisation to increase their profits. The money for those excess profits doesn't just come out of thin air, someone has to pay for it. Who do you think that is going to be? I would suggest it will ultimately be the end consumer.
    eg:
    1) bank manipulates market to make excess profit at expense of power company
    2) power company recoups their excess cost through higher prices for consumers

    Market manipulation is not a "victimless crime" - someone has to pay for it.
    • LadyDee
    • By LadyDee 13th Nov 12, 5:45 PM
    • 1,914 Posts
    • 1,953 Thanks
    LadyDee
    I hope any investigation is going to include people who are locked into Calor gas - we can't switch, shop around, try to find a cheaper deal.
    • veryintrigued
    • By veryintrigued 13th Nov 12, 7:34 PM
    • 1,477 Posts
    • 717 Thanks
    veryintrigued
    Keep dreaming..

    Its always nice to have dreams..
    Originally posted by Plushchris
    Consumer groups should be campaigning that if, they are found guilty, rather than pay a fine - they should indeed should pay their customers pro rata.
    • trets77
    • By trets77 13th Nov 12, 7:38 PM
    • 2,862 Posts
    • 2,674 Thanks
    trets77
    Seize their assets would be a better idea.

    we did it to Iceland.
    Better in my pocket than theirs
    • Ken68
    • By Ken68 13th Nov 12, 8:04 PM
    • 6,102 Posts
    • 3,838 Thanks
    Ken68
    This Libor- like fixing was mentioned in Private Eye "Keeping the Lights On" in Issue No 1319 27th July.
    It mentions other indices such as petrol, diesel, coal and natural gas possibly subject to the same rigging.
    The Private Eye article mentions that the energy price reporting agencies such as Platts, Argus, ICIS-Heren and McCloskey did bring it to the attention of the Financial Services Authority.
    Beginning to look like another Bank Job.
    • Consumerist
    • By Consumerist 13th Nov 12, 10:29 PM
    • 4,339 Posts
    • 2,155 Thanks
    Consumerist
    . . . Beginning to look like another Bank Job.
    Originally posted by Ken68
    Well what a surprise that would be if it was found the banks were involved.
    Warning: In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
    • Ken68
    • By Ken68 14th Nov 12, 9:47 AM
    • 6,102 Posts
    • 3,838 Thanks
    Ken68
    Curious timeline.
    The International Organisation of Securities Commissions (IOSCO) issued a report,exact date not known, but pre July 27th. which was picked up by Private Eye but not by the mainstream media until whistleblower came forth recently, three months later.
    Would the PM's office (and Sam Laidlaw of Centrica, business advisor) have seen this report in July.
    In the meantime price rises by the energy companies.
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