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PCCN after Oct 1st
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# 1
reallyangry
Old 05-10-2012, 7:33 PM
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Default PCCN after Oct 1st

Hi

I've got a PCCN from NCP today and after reading all the advice on here had settled on not paying the fine. Then I read about the new legislation that came into force on 1st Oct, does that mean I will now have to pay it or is it still advisable to just ignore it?

I parked over the line but to be fair there's no way in hell you'd be able to park in the bay next to me unless it was a motor bike because its against a brick wall and in all the years I've parked in that car park many other people have done the same in the exact same space. I drove round the car park and photographed every car that had done exactly the same without them getting a ticket one of which was just 4 bays away from my car!

I've checked and it's definitely a ticket from NCP and is not a council owned car park.

Any advice or help would be much appreciated, I'd like to sleep tonight.

Thanks
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# 2
trisontana
Old 05-10-2012, 7:43 PM
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Private parking ticket. Not a fine. Just ignore.
I am an "internet guru" (copyright Stephan Hall @ UKCPS)
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# 3
Coupon-mad
Old 05-10-2012, 7:45 PM
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Why not click one click back to the current forum, and read the stickies? See my signature for where to click in the blue link, top of page.

Third thread down tells all, including showing you preview pics of the letters that will be sent to the registered keeper.

And there are endless threads about this new Act and the POPLA appeals service.

Of course you don't have to pay it, these fake PCNs have not suddenly become enforceable fines. Do some reading of the threads on the forum then get a good night's sleep having found your answers covered several times over.
Ticket in a private car park in England/Wales?... DON'T PAY IT BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT- the advice changed in 2012/13!

CLICK on '>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking>' end of the small blue 'Home>Forums>' link, top of the page, to see current threads.
Do NOT read older advice to ignore, unless it was in Scotland or NI.
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# 4
taffy056
Old 05-10-2012, 7:46 PM
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Ignore it if you are the RK of the vehicle, you paid to park there so there is no loss to ncp as nobody else could park there, so it's an unenforceable invoice. If you wish to write to them to deny the alleged debt then take it popla that has just come in, you could cost them a bit of money as they must pay 32.40 for any appeal at popla and its binding on them but not you. Let us know what you wish to do.
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# 5
reallyangry
Old 05-10-2012, 8:14 PM
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Think I will ignore it, just read another post regarding the wording on tickets after 1st Oct, they only mention appeals going to them.

thanks very much for all your advice.
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# 6
RENEGADE
Old 05-10-2012, 8:18 PM
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What you need to remember is, the new procedure - with which no PPC seems to be complying - still doesn't make the invoice payable. It only enables PPCs to go after the keeper. Once it is seen that the PPC is pushing for ridiculous sums amounting to a penalty, they will advance no further.
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# 7
The Slithy Tove
Old 05-10-2012, 8:18 PM
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It would be interesting to know the actual wording on the ticket. In order to make use of the new legislation, they have to conform to quite specific wording on the PCN:
Quote:
7(1)A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to driver for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(a) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met.
(2)The notice must—
(a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;
(b)inform the driver of the requirement to pay parking charges in respect of the specified period of parking and describe those charges, the circumstances in which the requirement arose (including the means by which it was brought to the attention of drivers) and the other facts that made those charges payable;
(c)inform the driver that the parking charges relating to the specified period of parking have not been paid in full and specify the total amount of the unpaid parking charges relating to that period, as at a time which is—
(i)specified in the notice; and
(ii)no later than the time specified under paragraph (f);
(d)inform the driver of any discount offered for prompt payment and the arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints that are available;
(e)identify the creditor and specify how and to whom payment may be made;
(f)specify the time when the notice is given and the date.
(3)The notice must relate only to a single period of parking specified under sub-paragraph (2)(a) (but this does not prevent the giving of separate notices each specifying different parts of a single period of parking).
(4)The notice must be given—
(a)before the vehicle is removed from the relevant land after the end of the period of parking to which the notice relates, and
(b)while the vehicle is stationary,
by affixing it to the vehicle or by handing it to a person appearing to be in charge of the vehicle.
(5)In sub-paragraph (2)(d) the reference to arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints includes—
(a)any procedures offered by the creditor for dealing informally with representations by the driver about the notice or any matter contained in it; and
(b)any arrangements under which disputes or complaints (however described) may be referred by the driver to independent adjudication or arbitration.
If it fails any of this, then it's dead in the water, and they cannot pursue the registered keeper if you don't tell them who the driver was (and, naturally, you don't own up to being the driver as well as the keeper).
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# 8
reallyangry
Old 05-10-2012, 8:43 PM
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ok here goes verbatim:

HOW TO APPEAL

If you feel that you have received this Parking Contravention Charge Notice incorrectly or should not be liable to make payment for this notice an appeal must be received by us within fourteen (14) days of the issue date of this notice.

Please send any appeals to National Car Parks Limited, Notice Processing, PO Box 839, Northampton NN4 4AL. Clearly state within your appeal the Parking contravention Charge Notice number, your vehicle registration mark and you grounds for appeal. Appeals can also be submitted online at www-ncp-co-uk/pcn

Appeals will be reviewed in line with our terms and conditions.
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# 9
taffy056
Old 05-10-2012, 8:46 PM
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Ok it means the ticket is invalid, as it does not mention the proper appeals process, if you were bloody minded enough I would take this to popla so it costs them 32. I presume you are in England or Wales yes ?
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# 10
reallyangry
Old 05-10-2012, 8:48 PM
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yes i'm in England
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# 11
The Slithy Tove
Old 05-10-2012, 8:50 PM
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I assume that the PCCN mentions the amount and the contravention somewhere!

However, on the appeals, it fails on (5)(b), so they have not conformed to the law, and can't use the POFA to their benefit (though they'll think they can).
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# 12
reallyangry
Old 05-10-2012, 9:02 PM
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Yes it mentions the contravention and the amount it's filled out correctly however they describe my car as blueish, I don't think he could make his mind up whether it was blue or black.

I'll just sit it out, bring on the letters with the price of gas going up they'll make good kindling for the fire.
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# 13
Coupon-mad
Old 05-10-2012, 9:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reallyangry View Post
Yes it mentions the contravention and the amount it's filled out correctly however they describe my car as blueish, I don't think he could make his mind up whether it was blue or black.

I'll just sit it out, bring on the letters with the price of gas going up they'll make good kindling for the fire.

Good plan!
Ticket in a private car park in England/Wales?... DON'T PAY IT BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT- the advice changed in 2012/13!

CLICK on '>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking>' end of the small blue 'Home>Forums>' link, top of the page, to see current threads.
Do NOT read older advice to ignore, unless it was in Scotland or NI.
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# 14
bazster
Old 06-10-2012, 9:48 AM
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I reckon a lot of these will fall foul of 2(b). The ticket is supposed to describe means by which the requirement to pay a charge was brought to the attention of the driver.
I am an anti-enforcement hobbyist with little or no legal training. I am not and never have been a nightclub bouncer.
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# 15
The Slithy Tove
Old 06-10-2012, 2:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bazster View Post
I reckon a lot of these will fall foul of 2(b). The ticket is supposed to describe means by which the requirement to pay a charge was brought to the attention of the driver.
But only if they want to use the POFA to get keeper liability. I don't think POPLA will be looking at whether a ticket conforms to Schedule 4, as that doesn't affect the (il)legitimacy of the request for money itslef, only the ability to hold the RK liable, which surely comes after POPLA appeal.
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# 16
bazster
Old 06-10-2012, 3:30 PM
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But if it's the RK appealing then I'd have thought "I cannot be held liable" is a ground that POPLA certainly ought to consider.
I am an anti-enforcement hobbyist with little or no legal training. I am not and never have been a nightclub bouncer.
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# 17
Welsh Exile
Old 06-10-2012, 3:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bazster View Post
But if it's the RK appealing then I'd have thought "I cannot be held liable" is a ground that POPLA certainly ought to consider.
Oooh, crafty - So if I get a non-compliant (for RK liability purposes) ticket on my own car I go through the PPC appeals and then POPLA, without admitting being the driver and the PPC can't do a thing about it because of their duff ticket. It's cost them 27 plus vat and we're effectively in a pre-October 1st situation and they still don't know who to sue. Nice! How soon will they get their tickets updated, I wonder?
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# 18
The Slithy Tove
Old 06-10-2012, 4:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Welsh Exile View Post
How soon will they get their tickets updated, I wonder?
Considering that councils are still issuing tickets whch don't comply with the relvant law after however many years, I wouldn't hold my breath.

Remember, though, while non-compliant council tickets are effectively dead in the water (though it often needs to go all the way to ajudication to force the point), a non-compliant private PCN only fails with respect to the POFA. It still carries as much weight as an invoice for breach of contract with the driver as it ever did (however much or little that weight is).
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# 19
Welsh Exile
Old 06-10-2012, 7:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Slithy Tove View Post
Considering that councils are still issuing tickets whch don't comply with the relvant law after however many years, I wouldn't hold my breath.

Remember, though, while non-compliant council tickets are effectively dead in the water (though it often needs to go all the way to ajudication to force the point), a non-compliant private PCN only fails with respect to the POFA. It still carries as much weight as an invoice for breach of contract with the driver as it ever did (however much or little that weight is).
I understand that, but in any case, it still might be helpful in showing up the PPC for not following the rules were they to try court proceedings.
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# 20
The Slithy Tove
Old 07-10-2012, 8:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Welsh Exile View Post
I understand that, but in any case, it still might be helpful in showing up the PPC for not following the rules were they to try court proceedings.
Oh, absolutely! If they try to pursue a RK in court (rather than the driver) and haven't got the tickets correct, it's an instant FAIL.
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