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  • FIRST POST
    reallyangry
    PCCN after Oct 1st
    • #1
    • 5th Oct 12, 7:33 PM
    PCCN after Oct 1st 5th Oct 12 at 7:33 PM
    Hi

    I've got a PCCN from NCP today and after reading all the advice on here had settled on not paying the fine. Then I read about the new legislation that came into force on 1st Oct, does that mean I will now have to pay it or is it still advisable to just ignore it?

    I parked over the line but to be fair there's no way in hell you'd be able to park in the bay next to me unless it was a motor bike because its against a brick wall and in all the years I've parked in that car park many other people have done the same in the exact same space. I drove round the car park and photographed every car that had done exactly the same without them getting a ticket one of which was just 4 bays away from my car!

    I've checked and it's definitely a ticket from NCP and is not a council owned car park.

    Any advice or help would be much appreciated, I'd like to sleep tonight.

    Thanks
Page 1
    • trisontana
    • By trisontana 5th Oct 12, 7:43 PM
    • 8,803 Posts
    • 13,288 Thanks
    trisontana
    • #2
    • 5th Oct 12, 7:43 PM
    • #2
    • 5th Oct 12, 7:43 PM
    Private parking ticket. Not a fine. Just ignore.
    What part of "A whop bop-a-lu a whop bam boo" don't you understand?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Oct 12, 7:45 PM
    • 36,135 Posts
    • 47,213 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #3
    • 5th Oct 12, 7:45 PM
    • #3
    • 5th Oct 12, 7:45 PM
    Why not click one click back to the current forum, and read the stickies? See my signature for where to click in the blue link, top of page.

    Third thread down tells all, including showing you preview pics of the letters that will be sent to the registered keeper.

    And there are endless threads about this new Act and the POPLA appeals service.

    Of course you don't have to pay it, these fake PCNs have not suddenly become enforceable fines. Do some reading of the threads on the forum then get a good night's sleep having found your answers covered several times over.
    PCN in a private car park in England/Wales? DON'T PAY IT BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    USE THE 'FORUM JUMP' ON RIGHT, GO TO THE PARKING TICKETS FORUM. READ THE 'NEWBIES' THREAD.
    Do NOT read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

  • taffy056
    • #4
    • 5th Oct 12, 7:46 PM
    • #4
    • 5th Oct 12, 7:46 PM
    Ignore it if you are the RK of the vehicle, you paid to park there so there is no loss to ncp as nobody else could park there, so it's an unenforceable invoice. If you wish to write to them to deny the alleged debt then take it popla that has just come in, you could cost them a bit of money as they must pay 32.40 for any appeal at popla and its binding on them but not you. Let us know what you wish to do.
  • reallyangry
    • #5
    • 5th Oct 12, 8:14 PM
    • #5
    • 5th Oct 12, 8:14 PM
    Think I will ignore it, just read another post regarding the wording on tickets after 1st Oct, they only mention appeals going to them.

    thanks very much for all your advice.
  • RENEGADE
    • #6
    • 5th Oct 12, 8:18 PM
    • #6
    • 5th Oct 12, 8:18 PM
    What you need to remember is, the new procedure - with which no PPC seems to be complying - still doesn't make the invoice payable. It only enables PPCs to go after the keeper. Once it is seen that the PPC is pushing for ridiculous sums amounting to a penalty, they will advance no further.
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 5th Oct 12, 8:18 PM
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    The Slithy Tove
    • #7
    • 5th Oct 12, 8:18 PM
    • #7
    • 5th Oct 12, 8:18 PM
    It would be interesting to know the actual wording on the ticket. In order to make use of the new legislation, they have to conform to quite specific wording on the PCN:
    7(1)A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to driver for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(a) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met.
    (2)The notice must—
    (a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;
    (b)inform the driver of the requirement to pay parking charges in respect of the specified period of parking and describe those charges, the circumstances in which the requirement arose (including the means by which it was brought to the attention of drivers) and the other facts that made those charges payable;
    (c)inform the driver that the parking charges relating to the specified period of parking have not been paid in full and specify the total amount of the unpaid parking charges relating to that period, as at a time which is—
    (i)specified in the notice; and
    (ii)no later than the time specified under paragraph (f);
    (d)inform the driver of any discount offered for prompt payment and the arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints that are available;
    (e)identify the creditor and specify how and to whom payment may be made;
    (f)specify the time when the notice is given and the date.
    (3)The notice must relate only to a single period of parking specified under sub-paragraph (2)(a) (but this does not prevent the giving of separate notices each specifying different parts of a single period of parking).
    (4)The notice must be given—
    (a)before the vehicle is removed from the relevant land after the end of the period of parking to which the notice relates, and
    (b)while the vehicle is stationary,
    by affixing it to the vehicle or by handing it to a person appearing to be in charge of the vehicle.
    (5)In sub-paragraph (2)(d) the reference to arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints includes—
    (a)any procedures offered by the creditor for dealing informally with representations by the driver about the notice or any matter contained in it; and
    (b)any arrangements under which disputes or complaints (however described) may be referred by the driver to independent adjudication or arbitration.
    If it fails any of this, then it's dead in the water, and they cannot pursue the registered keeper if you don't tell them who the driver was (and, naturally, you don't own up to being the driver as well as the keeper).
  • reallyangry
    • #8
    • 5th Oct 12, 8:43 PM
    • #8
    • 5th Oct 12, 8:43 PM
    ok here goes verbatim:

    HOW TO APPEAL

    If you feel that you have received this Parking Contravention Charge Notice incorrectly or should not be liable to make payment for this notice an appeal must be received by us within fourteen (14) days of the issue date of this notice.

    Please send any appeals to National Car Parks Limited, Notice Processing, PO Box 839, Northampton NN4 4AL. Clearly state within your appeal the Parking contravention Charge Notice number, your vehicle registration mark and you grounds for appeal. Appeals can also be submitted online at www-ncp-co-uk/pcn

    Appeals will be reviewed in line with our terms and conditions.
  • taffy056
    • #9
    • 5th Oct 12, 8:46 PM
    • #9
    • 5th Oct 12, 8:46 PM
    Ok it means the ticket is invalid, as it does not mention the proper appeals process, if you were bloody minded enough I would take this to popla so it costs them 32. I presume you are in England or Wales yes ?
  • reallyangry
    yes i'm in England
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 5th Oct 12, 8:50 PM
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    The Slithy Tove
    I assume that the PCCN mentions the amount and the contravention somewhere!

    However, on the appeals, it fails on (5)(b), so they have not conformed to the law, and can't use the POFA to their benefit (though they'll think they can).
  • reallyangry
    Yes it mentions the contravention and the amount it's filled out correctly however they describe my car as blueish, I don't think he could make his mind up whether it was blue or black.

    I'll just sit it out, bring on the letters with the price of gas going up they'll make good kindling for the fire.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Oct 12, 9:18 PM
    • 36,135 Posts
    • 47,213 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes it mentions the contravention and the amount it's filled out correctly however they describe my car as blueish, I don't think he could make his mind up whether it was blue or black.

    I'll just sit it out, bring on the letters with the price of gas going up they'll make good kindling for the fire.
    Originally posted by reallyangry

    Good plan!
    PCN in a private car park in England/Wales? DON'T PAY IT BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    USE THE 'FORUM JUMP' ON RIGHT, GO TO THE PARKING TICKETS FORUM. READ THE 'NEWBIES' THREAD.
    Do NOT read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • bazster
    • By bazster 6th Oct 12, 9:48 AM
    • 7,326 Posts
    • 9,447 Thanks
    bazster
    I reckon a lot of these will fall foul of 2(b). The ticket is supposed to describe means by which the requirement to pay a charge was brought to the attention of the driver.
    Je suis Charlie.
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 6th Oct 12, 2:49 PM
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    • 4,017 Thanks
    The Slithy Tove
    I reckon a lot of these will fall foul of 2(b). The ticket is supposed to describe means by which the requirement to pay a charge was brought to the attention of the driver.
    Originally posted by bazster
    But only if they want to use the POFA to get keeper liability. I don't think POPLA will be looking at whether a ticket conforms to Schedule 4, as that doesn't affect the (il)legitimacy of the request for money itslef, only the ability to hold the RK liable, which surely comes after POPLA appeal.
    • bazster
    • By bazster 6th Oct 12, 3:30 PM
    • 7,326 Posts
    • 9,447 Thanks
    bazster
    But if it's the RK appealing then I'd have thought "I cannot be held liable" is a ground that POPLA certainly ought to consider.
    Je suis Charlie.
  • Welsh Exile
    But if it's the RK appealing then I'd have thought "I cannot be held liable" is a ground that POPLA certainly ought to consider.
    Originally posted by bazster
    Oooh, crafty - So if I get a non-compliant (for RK liability purposes) ticket on my own car I go through the PPC appeals and then POPLA, without admitting being the driver and the PPC can't do a thing about it because of their duff ticket. It's cost them 27 plus vat and we're effectively in a pre-October 1st situation and they still don't know who to sue. Nice! How soon will they get their tickets updated, I wonder?
    If I had a signature, this is where it would go.
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 6th Oct 12, 4:17 PM
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    The Slithy Tove
    How soon will they get their tickets updated, I wonder?
    Originally posted by Welsh Exile
    Considering that councils are still issuing tickets whch don't comply with the relvant law after however many years, I wouldn't hold my breath.

    Remember, though, while non-compliant council tickets are effectively dead in the water (though it often needs to go all the way to ajudication to force the point), a non-compliant private PCN only fails with respect to the POFA. It still carries as much weight as an invoice for breach of contract with the driver as it ever did (however much or little that weight is).
  • Welsh Exile
    Considering that councils are still issuing tickets whch don't comply with the relvant law after however many years, I wouldn't hold my breath.

    Remember, though, while non-compliant council tickets are effectively dead in the water (though it often needs to go all the way to ajudication to force the point), a non-compliant private PCN only fails with respect to the POFA. It still carries as much weight as an invoice for breach of contract with the driver as it ever did (however much or little that weight is).
    Originally posted by The Slithy Tove
    I understand that, but in any case, it still might be helpful in showing up the PPC for not following the rules were they to try court proceedings.
    If I had a signature, this is where it would go.
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 7th Oct 12, 8:44 AM
    • 2,898 Posts
    • 4,017 Thanks
    The Slithy Tove
    I understand that, but in any case, it still might be helpful in showing up the PPC for not following the rules were they to try court proceedings.
    Originally posted by Welsh Exile
    Oh, absolutely! If they try to pursue a RK in court (rather than the driver) and haven't got the tickets correct, it's an instant FAIL.
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