'Don't believe everything you read in The Times about me and student loans' blog

Former_MSE_Helen · 1 June 2011 at 10:21AM

This is the discussion to link on the back of Martin's blog. Please read the blog first, as this discussion follows it.

Read Martin's Don't believe everything you read in The Times about me and student loans Blog.

Please click 'post reply' to discuss below.

Paul_Herring · 1 June 2011 at 11:25AM

Martin wrote:

This shock headline is rather far from the truth – and actually quite far from the body of the article itself.

This is the MSM we're talking about. This shouldn't come to a shock to someone who actually works in MSM.

Some suggested reading if it does come as a shock to anyone:
The caveat in paragraph number 19:

Ben_Goldacre wrote:

The late caveat, torpedoing the central premise of a news piece, is a common strategy in many newspapers. But what use is this information, at the end of a long article, in paragraph number 19?

Million_Percent · 1 June 2011 at 11:32AM

Typical British media twisting things to meet their own agenda.

I remember reading an article about Gordon Ramsay in which there was a part which said something like 'in doing research for his new TV series, Ramsay found that there are huge numbers of young women who don't know how to cook'. Fair enough. Yet somehow this translated into an article headline of Women Can't Cook Says Gordon Ramsay. Outrageous - the headline was obviously thought up well before the content of the story was known.

pompeyfaith · 1 June 2011 at 11:38AM

Freedom of press is one thing, but when they start reporting on matters that are far from the truth which they know to be wrong is quiet something else.

oakhouse13 · 1 June 2011 at 12:20PM

You have used a pint of beer when talking about interest:

"I get so many e-mails and messages from people saying, “I’ve just seen an advert for a company
charging 2,300% interest, that’s disgusting, it should stop”—is that I did a pet calculation the other day
which showed that if I lent you £20 and said, “Pay me back a pint of beer next week; buy me a pint for
it,” and the pint cost £3, that’s 141,000% interest, if you compound it. Yet most people would say, “Buy
me a pint and £20, is a pretty reasonable deal.” Interest rates are a blunt tool"

Evidence to the Treasury Select Committee 19th October 2010

alunharford · 1 June 2011 at 7:48PM

Martin_Lewis wrote:

"I get so many e-mails and messages from people saying, “I’ve just seen an advert for a company
charging 2,300% interest, that’s disgusting, it should stop”—is that I did a pet calculation the other day
which showed that if I lent you £20 and said, “Pay me back a pint of beer next week; buy me a pint for
it,” and the pint cost £3, that’s 141,000% interest, if you compound it. Yet most people would say, “Buy
me a pint and £20, is a pretty reasonable deal.” Interest rates are a blunt tool"

Oh dear! The exchange of a pint of beer at a pub is not a 'pure' commercial transaction (nobody is keeping track but there is an expectation that things will eventually 'even out' because the lender is likely to buy the next round). This is a very different relationship to that between a lender and a payday loan company.

That's the reason the former is socially acceptable (it's human beings building relationships) but the latter is not (it's a lender trying to screw the borrower for everything they can get away with).

oakhouse13 · 1 June 2011 at 8:53PM

It was more that Martin often uses food analogies to explain money but when the bag of crisps and a pint analogy was put to him he seemed genuinely not to recognise it. It sounded like him to me!

ISAs

Think of savings and investments as giant cakes – some Chocolate (representing Cash, I never said this was subtle!) and some Strawberry (Shares).

I think he has an analogy about bread and whether you buy it from the baker or supermaket to explain prices.

jamesd · 2 June 2011 at 12:48AM

The title "Money guru enlisted to sell tuition fees as costing two pints and a bag of crisps" may be right, though I haven't read the story. It's asserting the purpose of enlisting Martin Lewis, not what Martin's own views are. That is, it's about what someone else did, not what Martin did, believes or says.

2sides2everystory · 2 June 2011 at 5:04PM

"I am no fan of the new system … but my great fear is that the political debate has muddied the waters so much that there is a fundamental misunderstanding of how the system works and this will cause as much damage to access as the tuition fees themselves."

I don't think that sounds like a helpful position ...

What's the control in this experiment? Shall we say it is the body of prospective university students who would apply for a university education if only their country stood up to the plate and paid for it?

So then shall we say 30% of those are students who do already understand the scheme and will now not apply?

And Martin is saying that there is a danger of another 30% who will not apply because they can too easily be persuaded by political argument rather than some soundbite? Or maybe its 10% and 10% or 20% and 20%? Maybe someone is worried its actually 50/50 and at this rate they'll need to get lastminute.com to flog off cheap courses in September 2012 with free beer crisps and accommodation thrown in?

Seriously, does Martin perhaps mean as regards these commandments handed down now from on high (and lo, even set in stone) that we should all keep quiet now in church and let the minister's sermon sink in, or perhaps even let the minister put his teeth back in and have another go at telling it? :rotfl:

MSE_Martin · 2 June 2011 at 6:30PM

Just to clarify as there is some strange confusion above.

My point about the beer and crisps analogy, wasn't that "I wouldn't use a food analogy" - of course if that works to explain a point I would.

Its that in this case I don't believe trying to equate the complexity of student finance into a cost per week is how I would communicate it, never mint pints and crisps,- it misses all the points.

So let me clarify (though I thought it was pretty clear) - I had never heard, and didnt know anything about that analogy, nor am I planning to use it - hence why attributing it to me is completely incorrect.

2sides2everystory · 2 June 2011 at 6:57PM

Yes, yes Martin we know that, but many of us I am sure are thinking will we yet see Martin take a late turn at the helm on this one? Will he like Alex Salmond come up with a soundbite like “the rocks will melt with the sun” before you see a tuition fee scheme like Mr Willetts' get implemented for English students ? What would Martin be saying now if he was back at LSE ? Would he be flying risking his rocks like Icarus, or running with the hounds like the fox

These are the the things to which we MSE forumites yearn to know the answers :money:

'Don't believe everything you read in The Times about me and student loans' blog

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