Help please - Natwest/bank charges claim/Payplan/court??

Nickij01 · 24 August 2009 at 9:06PM

Firstly apologies if this isn't in the right area, new to here and in need of some advice and assistance.

As you can probably tell by the title my situation and query is a little complex so will try and explain as best I can.

In financial difficulties and have tried to be as good as possible by following advice previously sort by opening a basic bank account, reassessing outgoings and budgeting, setting up a debt management program with Payplan.

Have 2 issues with Natwest that are seperate but kind of link up.

First issue, attempting to reclaiming bank charges through hardship criteria, hardship criteria is mortgage arears, council tax arears, creditor arears (through payplan debt management plan for £27000) and other bills being returned, consistently receiving more bank charges due to not being able to afford to pay for everything all due to me losing my job about 5 months ago (back in work now finally but still have serious money issues). With claim, Natwest said they do not believe we are in financial hardship and that we are over spending yet we had to complete an financial statement for Payplan and wouldn't have been accepted if we were over spending on anything, we are certainly not spending money on anything other than bills, fuel and food.

Second issue, one of payplan items is a £12000 loan with Natwest. We have going thrugh Payplan for just over a year now and so Natwest have received payments totally £1800 in the last year through this scheme, both Natwest and the banking code recommend Payplan when finding resolutions to financial difficulty, yet Natwest have refused to enter into this agreement willingly and now finally we have received court forms for the entire amount of the original loan. Now I know that you enter into an agreement and that when we started going through Payplan, that means you are breaking the agreement BUT I thought that banks where supposed to be, especially in the current climate, being more sympathetic and positive towards people in our situation, surely it is better that they are receiving monthly payments than nothing at all.

My query is, am I expecting too much, should we just accept liability for the entire amount and forget about the £1800 we have already frittered away like it was a complete waste or should I expect Natwest to be more understanding and sympathetic, it says in the bank code that banks should deal with people in financial difficulties with sympathy and positive understanding, I dont believe this is the case.

How can they recommend the use of this company and then refuse to enter into a payment agreement, it defies belief, but I need to understand if I actually have any rights at all or if I am fighting a losing battle?

I would also like to know, am I milking the hardship, from what I have researched and read I fall into the hardship criteria but they are saying no.

Any help, advice on this extremely frustrating situation would be really be welcomed, I just want to do right and make and do the best I can out of a very stressful and horrible situation.

Thanks in advance

Nicki

esmerellda · 25 August 2009 at 7:18AM

Hi Nickij

Firstly you havent frittered away the £1800 you have paid Natwest. It will come off the total amount you owe them. They will be taking you to court in order to get a judgment and security over the loan, basically. If they do claim against you you will admit and offer to pay (plus defend any daft collection charge and counterclaim for any charges) and your offer to pay will be the amount you pay through payplan each month.

The judge will accept this and order an installment order of that amount, and you will have a CCJ on your record.

Then Natwest will most likely apply for a charging order on your property. If you are paying the installments without fail and get a decent judge they shouldnt get it, but if they do, it would simply sit on your house while you continue paying off monthly and when it comes to selling the house the figure will be reduced by what you have paid, and if you dont and pay it all off it would be removed from the house.

They can't (and wouldnt get even if they tried) get a sale order unless you stop making the payments.

Anyway - thats all assuming natwest do go to court - I personally prefer that way as they can't mess you about asking for more and hassling you and passing you round random debt collectors.

Your hardship claim - its really impossible to say without having seen your income expenditure sheet, natwest use the standard CFS sheet and outline figures from the money advice trust - as do payplan. Targets for hardship are stricter and based on different areas to targets for whether you need a DMP (as thats based on non priority debt usually). The fact you are on a DMP does go against a little bit when trying for hardship. The mortgage and council tax arrears - if you have agreements set up to repay those, then again, it works against hardship claims. (I know its daft but does kind of make sense as you arent in iediate danger of losing your home)

Now, I can help you with your court forms if you would like, but I need to see the POCs (particulars of claim off the front of the N1 Moneyclaim form) and need a lot more info.

First thing you need to do is enter your acknowledgement of service, just tick defend in full and get it sent in or do it online. Just gives you some more time to sort out an offer to pay and any counterclaim/defence needed.

Hope that helps for the moment anyway

Ame
xx

esmerellda · 25 August 2009 at 7:20AM

Oh one thing, how much are you paying Natwest monthly under the DMP at the moment and how much do you pay in total to payplan each month for the dmp ?

also is there any overdraft debt on your current account ?

Nickij01 · 25 August 2009 at 2:18PM

Hi Esmerellda, I have to say, I am a bit of a dummy so some of what you have said has kinda blinded me. So there is nothing we can do about them giving us (my fiance) a CCJ basically?

I am just cross because we have roughly 12 creditors covered by the DMP, out of the 12, 2 are banks, Abbey and Natwest, all the other creditors have been happy to receive money from Payplan and have had no trouble, yet with the two banks, both of which recommend taking up a DMP with Payplan have just been really difficult about it, why do they recommend using it if they then don't support it themselves? Surely that is rather contradictory, unethical, confusing to the consumer and completely unfair.

Ok I can get online but you recommend me defending it in full?

What other information do you need from me?

I am very concerned at the prospect of them not stopping at the CCJ, I just don't get it, sorry probably a very nieve person in your eyes. This has been the most stressful horrid time I have ever experienced dealing with banks, I hate them and wish we weren't beholden to using them.

Anyway, most grateful for any assistance and if you could explain it as simply as possible so I get it, rather a large dumb !!! here!

Thanks

NJ

esmerellda · 25 August 2009 at 2:22PM

Just while I reply properly, out of interest ,who are the solicitors (Shoosmiths?Irwin Mitchell ?)

esmerellda · 25 August 2009 at 2:42PM

When did you take out the loan ?

Can you type up the full particulars of claim from the court form please.

A court action is very stressful, you have to try detach from it and treat it as a process. Don't be scared theres plenty of peeps to help you. You have acted perfectly correctly in going to payplan and aking payments of what around £150 a month? is pretty high and I dont think the court will be overly amused that they recommended you use payplan then refused such a high offer when you did.

We have had people paying £20 a month on a £12k debt and the courts refused to give charging orders so really I wouldnt worry, from experience I know Natwests solicitors can try to get charging orders, and some judges are very anti that type of behaviour.

I expect their paperwork is rather lacking so we'll look at that and make natwest do some work for their money, if indeed they are entitled to it

You dont have to roll over and just accept anything they throw at you, payplan would probably advise to just admit and offer to pay. We also want to look at getting the judge to deny interest continuing to acrue on the debt after judgment.

Please try not to worry, will help you all I can

.

So yes, on the acknowledgement form just tick intend to defend in full (or do it online at moneyclaim.gov.uk) and once have seen particulars of claim etc we'll do a request for information and look at charges/credit agreements etc.

Ame
xx

Nickij01 · 25 August 2009 at 8:32PM

Ok already I have stuffed up, I get so nervous and end up doing the wrong thing, I am such a ding bat, I basically did the acknowledgment of service but said I was only defending part of the claim, I am so stupid, am I now totally stuffed, I promise generally I am fairly articulate, but when nerves get the better of me, I lose it, I promise I will try to detach from it.

The solicitors are Irwin Mitchell yes.

Particulars of the claim:
By agreement(s) entered into between the Claimant and Defendant, the Defendant has failed to pay the sum 12156.86. The Claimant has requested payment but the Defendant has failed to pay the full sum demanded. The Claimant claims the sum of 12156.86 and interest under s.69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at a rate of 8% per annum from 11/08/2009 until judgment or sooner payment. Costs. The claim does not include issues under the Human Rights Act 1998. The Claimant has complied with Sections III and IV of the Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct of the Civil Procedure Rules.

OMG I feel sick, I have just on to check my Payplan account and they have completely wiped and removed the data we had on how much we had paid to Natwest, and replaced it with the full amount so therefore admitting defeat on our behalf and accepting we start again which in affect does just line Natwests pockets with nearly £1800, please help me I don't know what to do about that, I have written to them, rather cross tone but I just can't believe it. We where paying £136 per month, but now I can't access to get the evidence I was going to, I can prove what we where paying on a monthly basis but the detail or total of how much we had paid, the outstanding balance etc, its gone. I am so angry with them.

Let me know what else you need x I am going to go away and do quite a bit of crying now I think.

esmerellda · 25 August 2009 at 10:49PM

Hey xx

Did you put an amount in for how much you admit? defend part is fine, really don't worry xxx its only an acknowledgement

tomorrow we'll do a letter to natwest/irwin mitchell asking for the information we need - check they have all the paperwork in order and that you actually owe the debt as theres nothing in the particulars of claim to show you do.

We'll get a full statement of the account of natwest/irwins too. So that will show payments you have made. Plus don't payplan send you monthly lists of what you are paying and how the balances are reducing ?

We have 28 days from the date on the front of the claim form to get everything sorted, so theres no mad rush although I'm sure you'll feel better once your paperworks in and its in the courts hands.

I will need some info off of you so make sure you have all your payplan stuff and any letters regarding natwest about tmw, and if you have a current income expenditure sheet that would be great (copy of payplan one?) if not we can go through and do that too.

basically we'll ask for the original credit agreement, statement of the account, transaction lists, charges list and go from there. You will get a CCJ more than likely but any charging order we can fight, and you will still be paying the amount you pay via payplan.

now, take a deep breath and calm down, have the night off

Feel free to pm me or email me amethyst@legalbeagles.info, I should be about all day tomorrow (have to wait in for a delivery between 7am and 7pm!!! you'd think they could narrow it down little more than that tsk)

talk tomorrow (((((((((((((((((((hug)))))))))))))))))))

esmerellda · 26 August 2009 at 9:10AM

First letter to go to Natwest, and cc it to Irwin Mitchells. (both addresses on the court form)

This will get you the credit agreement and transaction lists.

Natwest Bank Plc
cc Irwin Mitchell Solicitors

Dear Sir/Madam,

Claim Ref: XXXXX REQUEST FOR INFORMATION UNDER THE CIVIL PROCEDURE RULES.

I have received the Court claim filed by your Company. To enable me to file a defence and counter-claim, I require specific information regarding the account to be provided forthwith. Given that this matter is now the subject of legal proceedings, you are obliged to disclose under the Civil Procedure Rules, the information and documents detailed below. The information must be furnished by the 7th September , which gives you ten days to provide what has been requested. If you fail to comply, this will be reported to the Court, a copy of this letter will be provided as evidence to the same and an Order enforcing your compliance will be sought.

1. A true copy of the executed credit agreement and any terms and conditions that applied to the account at the time of default and at the time the account was opened.

2. All records you hold on me relevant to this case, including but not limited to:
a. A transcript of all transactions, including charges, fees,interest, repayments and payments and both the original amount of the loan and any repayments made to the account since its inception.
b. Transcriptions of all telephone conversations recorded and any notes made in relation to telephone conversations
d. True copies of any notice of assignment and/or default notice or enforcement notice that you or the original creditor sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold.
e. Documents relating to any insurance added to the account, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable).
f. Details of any collection charge added to the account; specifically, the date it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was calculated, and what the charge covers.
g. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.
h. A genuine copy of any deed of assignment, or proof that you have a legal right to this money.
i. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998
j. A list of third party agencies to whom you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed.
3. Any other documents you seek to rely on in court.
4. A copy of your complaints procedure, as required by the Consumer Credit Act 2006.

I will require this information within the next ten days. I must advise you that if the information is not forthcoming, it will be reported to the Court that you are trying to frustrate proceedings and denying me the opportunity to file a defence and counter claim.
I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.
I await your rapid response.

Yours Faithfully,

Can you confirm the date of service on the form from the court so we know when we have to put the defence in by. (hoping its not 11th August - if it is we'll get a holding defence put in asap)

If they don't provide this information we will put in a simple holding defence and the court will order Irwin Mitchell to supply it before continuing.

If they do provide it we can go through it, work out any unfair charges/collection charge to defend, check the agreement is sound - Do you have access to a scanner or a fax machine ? - then enter an admission and offer to pay with a defence/counterclaim on charges, evidence of amounts paid, evidence of your payplan DMP and an offer to pay by installments the same amount you are currently paying via payplan.

Double check with payplan that they are continuing to pay the monthly amount.

We'll also need to do a full income expenditure sheet.

Think thats enough for the moment. If I have confused you at all just yell at me.

Once you have sent that off let me know and we can look at your hardship claim.

Nickij01 · 26 August 2009 at 3:25PM

Hi there, thank you so much for all your time and help, it is envaluable (think that is the right word).

No I didn't put an amount in so hope that is ok.

Payplan dont send anything but we have access to what is called Justabank where you log on and all the details are accessed through this portal. They have basically removed the details that where stored for the original Natwest one though including how much we had paid and what was outstanding and replaced it with a completley new one starting from zero again, I just can't believe they think it is ok for £1800 to just line Natwest's pockets, I was and still am fuming about the hole thing. The only information I can access easily is the monthly payment history so that is no problem, my fiance is speaking to Payplan tomorrow to obtain written explanation for what they have done and proof of what has been paid and the details so that will be something else.

I don't have court forms on me which I know is rather stupid but can check the date this evening but will get letter prepared and then will just correct if required tomorrow and get it posted.

Financial statement is no problem either, I can get this from Payplan.

What is a tmw, sorry?

Do you think there is any chance what so ever that they would cancel the court process? Say with my complaints to OFT and Financial Ombudsman about the way they have not supported the DMP even though they recommended the use of it?

Thanks hun

NJ x

Nickij01 · 26 August 2009 at 3:33PM

Oh forgot to say I can access scanner and fax machine at work, no probs.

I am still working on the detachment thing, I have always been a very sensitive person and always done my best to be a good person and hate the thought of being treated this way thats all, I think you class that as an all round wuse, generally I am a tough cookie but with the crap life throughs at you and what seems constantly, I just want a quiet life and will do anything (within reason) to get that and get along with people, thats why I went for the DMP in the first place, I thought I was doing the right thing.

Can I also ask what my counterclaim is going to be, that bit confuses me and I don't understand that at all.

Also something quite important, due to our financial circumstances becoming very difficult recently, I was out of work for 3 months, so outgoing don't change but income halved, July payment was massively reduced to only £14 in total to Payplan, also this month has been delayed purely to there being so many bills behind, trying to pay them and just struggling to keep up in general, can't remember the last time I went for a decent supermarket shop.

Anyway rambling now sorry.

Step by step instructions is best for me so I know what to do in what order. So letter first yes?

Thanks again for everything!

NJ

Help please - Natwest/bank charges claim/Payplan/court??

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