Who owns my cellar?

rob_kzk · 20 April 2006 at 8:44AM

Hi All,

I posted yesterday about the shambles that is my flat and solicitors (Nightmare Scenario...), anyway this morning I have downloaded the title deeds for the owner of the freehold of the flat I own (it's a terrace house that's been converted into two flats and I own the ground floor flat).

All it says on the schedules of notices of leases on his deeds is "ground floor flat and garden ground". The buyer that pulled out of buying my flat yesterday pulled out because apparently in my deeds it doesn't state that I own the cellar.

Now I need to know who does. The only access to the cellar is through the kitchen in my flat so logically it would belong to my flat. Is anyone able to help with this?

What does the definition "ground floor flat" mean. I would have thought that this would include the cellar.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

Rob

Debt_Free_Chick · 20 April 2006 at 8:53AM

My own thought is that you do not own the cellar. The access to the cellar doesn't matter. It seems that the notice of the lease on the freehold relates only to the ground floor flat and garden. The cellar is below the ground floor and seems to be excluded.

Similar situations arise with top floor flats. Many occupiers think they can convert the loft space and "add it" to their flat - no so. You have to own the loft space in order to use it and I think the same applies to your flat.

Do you not have the paperwork relating to your purchase of the flat? If so, dig it out and have a good read - it ought to confirm what you bought.

Hang around for other thoughts, but HTH

Doozergirl · 20 April 2006 at 11:39AM

Your freeholder will own the cellar. Your flat is essentially rented to you on a long term basis (it's obviously a lot more complicated than that). You can approach the freeholder with regard to extending your lease to cover the cellar but...

Building Regulations are quite strict and I'm sure that any conversion would have to comply with regulations with regard to emergency exit (windows of the correct size/height etc) to be classed as a room. If the freeholder does grant you the lease on the cellar, I think they can also impose the condition that they are paid a share of any increase in value that subsequently occurs from the conversion.

I don't really think that the person trying to buy your flat really knew what they were doing. Sorry.

noddynoo · 20 April 2006 at 12:43PM

We are just buying something like that and we own the upper maisonette the freehold AND the cellar and donstairs is garden flat and garden ground so no you don't own it and can't convert it

NAR · 20 April 2006 at 12:58PM

Rob, I can well understand your problem. My wife had a ground floor flat exactly the same as yours, but the cellar was on her deeds and she therefore owned it.

What use is the cellar to anyone else when the only access is through your kitchen?

silvercar · 20 April 2006 at 1:27PM

Two things cross my mind.

Would you be able to get indemnity insurance to protect your use of the cellar. On the grounds that you have been using it for X years without objection you must have some sort of case to continue in the same way. If you could get cover (your solicitor should be able to find out) it would protect the future owner against the loss in value if action was taken to prevent him using the cellar as you do now. This is not as ideal as sorting out the deeds properly but it would provide a solution.

Can you get in touch with the solicitor who acted for you when you purchased the flat? They should sort it out for you as it appears that they acted negligently (from what you say).

irnbru_2 · 20 April 2006 at 1:29PM

rob_kzk wrote:

Any help would be appreciated.

I agree with others, the freeholder owns it.

IIRC there was a property development program a few years back where a woman spent her inheritance doing up the cellar of her groundfloor flat. She discovered after about 10Ks worth of work that she did not own it.

A case of caveat cellar :rolleyes:

missk_ensington · 20 April 2006 at 2:00PM

Id be looking at the contract you got when you bought the flat. If you;ve lost money because the seller hadn't told you something, there a case for mis-rep.

Also, I would say the Freeholder owns the cellar. Usually the Ground Floor flat is the freeholder, and if youre the freeholder and dont know thats a whole bigger problem because youre responsible for building insurance for the whole property, collection of ground rent and maintenace, and you invoice the other flat who pay you. My mum is a Freeholder to 3 other flats and its a pain, she's always in court because she has repairs carried out, she invoices them and they never pay up!

Doozergirl · 20 April 2006 at 2:47PM

missk_ensington wrote:

Usually the Ground Floor flat is the freeholder.

This may well be the case for your mum and I sympathise with her as I know how difficult it is to get money on time from leaseholders! It wouldn't be the usual scenario though; the freeholder could live in any of the flats or indeed not live in the property at all. I don't want the OP to be worried or confused, that's all

[Deleted User] · 20 April 2006 at 4:51PM

Something similar happened to me when I bought a top floor 5 years ago, there was a door in the second bedroom to access the loft which was being used for storage by the previous owner. My solicitor found out that the loft wasn't actually included in the lease but I managed to buy it separately for £8K (I shared the costs 50/50 with my Vendor). I suggest that you approach your Freeholder to enquire how much it would cost to buy it from him and have it added to the lease so you can tell your future buyers.

Stressed_:(_2 · 13 November 2006 at 7:52PM

Van1971 wrote:

Something similar happened to me when I bought a top floor 5 years ago, there was a door in the second bedroom to access the loft which was being used for storage by the previous owner. My solicitor found out that the loft wasn't actually included in the lease but I managed to buy it separately for £8K (I shared the costs 50/50 with my Vendor). I suggest that you approach your Freeholder to enquire how much it would cost to buy it from him and have it added to the lease so you can tell your future buyers.

Van1971 we are in a similar situation how long did it take you to sort out the lease so you could buy it for £8k, we have been told in order for us to own the loft we need to get the freeholder to get the deeds from the bank, and appoint a solicitor to get the deeds changed, apparently this process can take months, and the owner is threatening to put the flat back on the market if we are adamant we want to own the loft. This is because she has been advised it will take 2-3 months to change the deeds/lease so this will mean that she will lose out on the property she wants to buy.

Who owns my cellar?

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