A+L Charge £50 for their error

anticlaus105 · 6 December 2005 at 10:29PM

Recieved a letter today saying I was being charged £25 by A+L for a paid transaction charge due to insufficient funds. After speaking to one woman on the phone and being given the blow off and told a manager would call me back (didn't after 3 hours) I spoke to another who refunded the charge but said another £25 was going on for going over my overdraft limit.

The second woman explained that as I had done some money transfers via internet banking after 8 o'clock (money in via online saver(supposed to be instant) and then out to derby reg saver about 1 minute later) this was why I was being charged. She said I should have transfered the money into my current acc from online saver the day before I transfered it out. She refered to my last transfer when I did it about 3pm (all the same day however?) and wasn't charged. The transfer in showed up that day and the transfer out the next day unlike this time where the transfer out shows before the money coming in on the same day.

I agreed this looked possibly to be the case and she said she would refund as I seemed genuine but would need to leave it to a manager to refund the next £25.

After examining my activity summary I now find that in Sept I did exactly the same as this time (even later that evening in fact) and all went through fine with no charges and all showed on my statement the same day just this time with the online saver transfer showing up 1st.

It seems to me now that something is a miss and this lady was talking !!!!!!.
If they try to charge me anynore money I want it back and would like to know really why this has happened.

If this excalates who do I threaten them I'm going to complain to to get a result? I've a feeling they are going to mess me around over this.

Sorry for rambling :snow_laug

Milarky · 7 December 2005 at 12:53AM

Whilst I appreciate you feel they are wrong and you are therefore right, it would not have caused a problem if you had a sufficient overdraft facility on the date of the transfer out of the current account because in those circumstances the payment is 'OKed' first and then your crediting payment from the online saver simply fills up the gap as it were. In fact, if you have sufficient overdraft to cover a outbound payment you can make that payment before you transfer anything out of the OLS.

Am I correct in assuming that either the size of your payment exceeded your agreed overdraft OR you had already left your A&L current account overdrawn close to its limit [interest-free for 12 months?] so making even a small payment problematic?

I must admit that the only good thing about the A&L current accounts [excepting the 'freebies' and in-credit interest rate] is that activity summary bit - because it shows everything you have ever done and is available permanently. I don't like the fact that you can't actually send a payment without leaving it a day or for an amount less than £1. Also the 228 days limit on actual transactions isn't that long either.

Stonk · 7 December 2005 at 6:36PM

I think their processing systems are at fault here.

Sounds like when you do an "in" and an "out" transaction on the same day (particularly after hours), there is some element of randomness in the order in which they are processed. One time it was OK, another time it was not. As a programmer, I can assure you there are many ways in which this randomness could arise. You should not be held responsible for it - it is perfectly reasonable to expect transactions to go through in the order you transact them.

anticlaus105 · 7 December 2005 at 7:38PM

Thanks for replies here are the details of one that worked fine and the other that didn't. I guessed it must be some sort of computer timing thing.

This cost me £25 and another that will be added on for goin over £1000 overdraft limit:

01/12/2005 20:21:40 Premier Direct Account 2 Payment / Transfer Request DERBY REG SAV2 1,000.00
01/12/2005 20:21:30 Premier Direct Account Payment / Transfer Request DERBY REG SAV1 1,000.00
01/12/2005 20:21:04 OnlineSaver Issue 2 Payment / Transfer Request NOMINATED ACCOUNT 2,000.00

Statement=
02/12/2005 TRANSFER ON 01DEC 2,000.00 -1,011.00
02/12/2005 PAID ITEM CHARGE -25 -3,011.00
02/12/2005 B-PAYMNT TO DERBY REG SAV2 -1,000.00 -2,986.00
02/12/2005 B-PAYMNT TO DERBY REG SAV1 -1,000.00 -1,986.00

This one worked fine tho

02/09/2005 21:49:56 Premier Plus Account Payment / Transfer Request DERBY REG SAV2 1,000.00
02/09/2005 21:49:37 Premier Plus Account Payment / Transfer Request DERBY REG SAV1 1,000.00
02/09/2005 21:49:10 Online Saver Payment / Transfer Request NOMINATED ACCOUNT 2,000.00

Statement=
03/09/2005 B-PAYMNT TO DERBY REG SAV2 -1,000.00 -405.44
03/09/2005 B-PAYMNT TO DERBY REG SAV1 -1,000.00 594.56
03/09/2005 TRANSFER ON 02SEP 2,000.00 1,594.56

If they don't refund the charges I will have to print these out and kick off in abranch.

As I asked earlier if I get no joy with A+L who would I take a complaint to and does it look like I would win?

Milarky · 8 December 2005 at 1:12PM

anticlaus,

Looking at the above, you can always say that you relied on the fact that this payment did go through in September successfully.

Are these 'standing order' or 'manual' payments? [looks like the latter] They don't actually leave the account until the next day do they? I assume that you put the OLS transfer late at night so that you know the monies go out to the RS accounts the next day. If 9-10pm counts as the 'withdrawal' date on the OLS then your bill payment requests should count as also taking place in that same 'day' and so there really should not be a question of the money [not] being in the linked account.

A&L are not good [as pointed out previously] for the cut offs on their accounts but the problem could still be avoided if you had a bigger credit limit. Why not ask - as part of your complaint with them - that they extend your O/D to at least cover the £2000 you want to be able to transfer each month? [As an alternative, if you only got a £1000+ available O/D you could still make payments to the Dershire, but on separate days, could you not?]

A final thought. What about having true standing order payments set to leave the current accounts [on successive days, say] and setting up future-dated paments from the OLS to the current a/c? [I'm not sure if it can be done with the OLS, but I've a feeling that it can.]

anticlaus105 · 8 December 2005 at 8:01PM

Once again thanks for the replies. These payments were made manually as shown in the activity report bit.

Received a letter today saying the charges have been applied correctly and still apply. This letter must have been generated in response to the 1st phonecall I made because £25 has been refunded today as per 2nd phone conversation.

I have yet to see whether a further £25 is taken for going over the overdraft limit but hope it's not.

If it isn't then all is settled. I am however curious as to why my 1st call generated a negative reponse and am not happy with this so will take it up at branch level.

If they do take anymore money and don't refund it who would i complain to?

Looking at my data maybe it was the extra 1 second I allowed in September after the transfer in that made it work ok :rotfl:

MarkyMarkD · 9 December 2005 at 12:41AM

Anti

Based on my experience as an A&L current account and Online Saver customer, and loads of threads like this, and as a sad person who's read the A&L terms & conditions in great detail:

A&L didn't charge you £50 for "their error". They charged you £50 because you didn't follow the terms of your account.

The Ts & Cs for A&L current accounts state very clearly that the funds for withdrawals have to be in the account at close of business on the PRECEDING banking day.

That means that your conception that transfers in from Online Saver are "supposed to be instant" is all very well (except that, actually, such transfers do not always happen same day and once again, the terms and conditions state that they will happen within 24 hours*) but it isn't relevant to whether you can withdraw those funds on the same day.

And the concept of precedence doesn't apply either. Just because a bank allows you to do something, which their Ts & Cs do not actually allow, on one occasion doesn't oblige them to do so again, or negate those Ts & Cs.

The reason A&L word the Ts & Cs as they do is precisely because they cannot guarantee that the transactions will be processed in a particular order. And transactions won't be processed at fixed times, either - they will be processed in batches, when the previous batch process has completed. There could be any number of reasons why a batch is delayed in processing, but none of that gives you any basis for complaint as the Ts & Cs require the funds to be there by close of business on the preceding business day.

So to be clear:

- transfers from OLS to Current Account are NOT guaranteed same day, but are within 24 hours (even though, in my experience, they normally happen same day)
- transfers out from Current Account require the funds to be there by close of business on the previous banking day (but, in some cases, you will "get away" with same day)
- as Milarky says, and as I've previously posted many, many times, the best way around the problem is to have a large agreed overdraft limit and to operate within it, as I do. This may not resolve the problem, however, if you want to make large transfers from OLS to Current Account and then out - if that's the case, you simply have to comply with the "previous banking day" rule.

You can't pursue a complaint to the Ombudsman (or anyone else) which is based on your own failure to comply with A&L's perfectly reasonable Ts & Cs, IMHO.

* Just for your reference, it also refers to the 24 hours here: http://www.alliance-leicester.co.uk/savings/index.asp?page=online-saver

lipidicman · 9 December 2005 at 1:05PM

Its all very well going on about the terms. The problem is that A&L staff themselves give the wrong advice. I phoned up to change my linked account to my new A&L current account. Whilst doing this I explained I was moving the contents of my OL saver to the second issue. I said can I move this to the current account and then immediately out to the new OLsaver. The answer 'YES!'. i even said I dont want to end up overdrawn. 'No, no problem!'. So I did it. The transfers both show as the same day. But in the wrong order. I hope they don't try to charge me for this!

I realise that the T&Cs cover it, but to be making money out of having an anachronistic system is ridiculous. If I do get penalised over an internal transfer it will be the last one I do and I will find someone else to look after my money!

anticlaus105 · 9 December 2005 at 6:53PM

I'm with lipidicman on this one tho now it has been explained to me by MarkyMarkD I will exercise due caution in future and do the transfers on different days.

When talking to someone at A+L on the phone a while back they said transfers between A+L accounts were instant. On this basis I do not care what T&C's say and for my first "offence" should be given a full refund (which I appear to have).

Now I know what the score is I will be more careful in future. I like their rates etc but A+L customer service is poor IMHO. A sour taste has been left in my mouth by this experience.

EDIT: They should tell their staff to stop using the word "instant" when refering to transfers.

anticlaus105 · 9 December 2005 at 9:10PM

Have just found the Advance Notification of Charges box in online banking.

Says charge of £25 due to come out on 20 Dec for UNAUTHORISED OVERDRAFT CHARGE.

If it's not corrected in a few days will pop into a branch and have words.

lipidicman · 12 December 2005 at 11:36AM

anticlaus105 wrote:

I'm with lipidicman on this one tho now it has been explained to me by MarkyMarkD I will exercise due caution in future and do the transfers on different days.

When talking to someone at A+L on the phone a while back they said transfers between A+L accounts were instant. On this basis I do not care what T&C's say and for my first "offence" should be given a full refund (which I appear to have).

Now I know what the score is I will be more careful in future. I like their rates etc but A+L customer service is poor IMHO. A sour taste has been left in my mouth by this experience.

EDIT: They should tell their staff to stop using the word "instant" when refering to transfers.

I am with you on everything you say above! I have closed all my accounts with them in the past (and it was a good move as I got lots of opening bonuses) and I would do it again.

I couldn't find the charge notices box online - where does it appear?

A+L Charge £50 for their error

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