Civil Penalty Notice - Parked for too long

Chris_Justice · 31 January 2010 at 12:57AM

I have been trawling through this forum (and others) but haven't found anything quite like my particular problem so thought i'd shout for some help. Any given is greatly appreciated.

The Story

Stopped into my girlfriends flat briefly for her to pick up some bits. Her block has commercial units at the bottom with 'private' parking spaces. There is also one 'pick up/drop off' bay limited to 20 minutes. Parking enforcement is by Shoal Enforcement.

I parked in the drop off bay and we went up to hers and took a little longer than expected mostly because I needed to loo! I arrived back at the car to find a Civil Penalty Charge notice and a very smug looking parking attendant. I asked him to provide evidence of my offence and he had digital images showing that i'd parked there for 23 minutes. I stupidly pleaded to his good nature about it being only 3 minutes - guess where that got me. He told me that not only had i been ticketed but his buddy was on his way to clamp me. This turned out to be true because about 1 minute later as i was driving off the clamper arrived and looked very disappointed that he hadn't caught me.

The charge is £120, reduced to £75 if paid within 48 hours or £100 if paid within 14 days. It says further action will be taken against the registered keeper after 28 days and admin fees of £60 will be added.

The Way Forward

Obviously I can't dispute that I wasn't parked to long. From reading various articles and forums my current thought is to just completely ignore this and any future correspondence. I do have some questions though:

Has anybody had any dealings with Shoal? (i.e. would they be likely to go to court?)
The ticket says Civil Penalty Charge. I've read that this is in fact an invoice and it could be considered fraudulent to include the word 'penalty' on it. Is this correct?
Is there a tolerance for timed parking? Is 3mins extra long enough or is there a minimum they have to wait?
Is the offence the responsibility of the registered keeper or the driver?
If the answer to the above is the driver, how do they prove it was me? (i did have dialogue with the attendant so will that count?)
If they take you to court what damages would they likely be able to claim since it is technically a free parking space?
Why are these low lives skulking around at 10pm on a saturday night?...i mean really.

Many thanks in advance for any help given.

p.s. so much for me trying to have a cheap weekend!

Kite2010 · 31 January 2010 at 1:04AM

Looking at their website (http://www.shoalenforcement.co.uk/) they appear to be a private company

So based on that, ignore their 'invoice'

As for people skulking around late at night, it's to catch people whom park longer than allowed and to clamp them, cos they are evil.

Hopefully crabman or coupon-mad or another of the regulars will confirm this

peter_the_piper · 31 January 2010 at 9:24AM

Seeing how disappointed they were do not be surprised if you get an invoice for a call out fee or something equally rubbish. Just continue to ignore everything.

Sir_Roger_deLodger · 31 January 2010 at 9:42AM

Here are a few answers for you...

Chris_Justice wrote: »

Has anybody had any dealings with Shoal? (i.e. would they be likely to go to court?)
About as likely as you winning the lottery two weeks running.
The ticket says Civil Penalty Charge. I've read that this is in fact an invoice and it could be considered fraudulent to include the word 'penalty' on it. Is this correct?
Yes
Is there a tolerance for timed parking? Is 3mins extra long enough or is there a minimum they have to wait?
There are no rules governing private parking.
Is the offence the responsibility of the registered keeper or the driver?
It's NOT an offence.
If the answer to the above is the driver, how do they prove it was me? (i did have dialogue with the attendant so will that count?)
They can't
If they take you to court what damages would they likely be able to claim since it is technically a free parking space?
Nil.
Why are these low lives skulking around at 10pm on a saturday night?...i mean really.
Because they are scum.

Many thanks in advance for any help given.

p.s. so much for me trying to have a cheap weekend!
You have had a cheap weekend because you are not going to pay them, are you?

oldone_2 · 31 January 2010 at 12:55PM

Were there any signs warning of clamping. The time between issuing an invoice and calling a clamping van does seem to indicate one of the nastier PPC's, and needs to be reported to the relevant authorities including the SIA (even if they are not members).

Chris_Justice · 31 January 2010 at 2:13PM

There are warning signs up although they state offences to be:

Parking without a permit;
Parking outside of marked bays;

And thats about it. The 20 minute drop off zone is a bit of a grey area because it isn't clear if you can park there for more than 20 minutes with a permit and it also doesn't stipulate any sort of 'no return with X hours' clause. Just says 20 minute drop off zone :silenced:

Coupon-mad · 31 January 2010 at 4:59PM

Chris_Justice wrote: »

There are warning signs up although they state offences to be:

Parking without a permit;
Parking outside of marked bays;

And thats about it. The 20 minute drop off zone is a bit of a grey area because it isn't clear if you can park there for more than 20 minutes with a permit and it also doesn't stipulate any sort of 'no return with X hours' clause. Just says 20 minute drop off zone :silenced:

That's all good. Their signs don't cover it then. :T

As others have said, yes you can safely ignore the PCN, it's like any other private parking charge notice - toilet paper. I expect Shoal may send you a series of rubbishy threatening letters like are shown here:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=2214803

If you get such letters, just ignore them. See from the link how other PPCs use debt collector headed notepaper and a solicitor as well, to try to frighten people into paying. Then nothing happens at all and they just go away to stalk softer touch victims.

If and when you park there again, be aware that IF they are stupid enough to clamp your car for this 'unpaid penalty' then this would be an illegal clamp (no-one can clamp to force payment of alleged debts). Trouble is, persuading the Police that this would be a criminal offence would be extremely difficult. You'd probably have to pay up under protest then take the scammers to Court. You'd get your money back but it would be such hassle!

Personally I would never park anywhere there are clamping signs anyway - clampers are not reasonable people and in your case they may have your card marked. Your GF needs to be very careful to always show her permit clearly as well - it's a truly horrible situation to be in living with the threat of friends or family having their vehicle clamped.

Just a thought, I personally think that your GF should complain in writing now to the landlord about the company staking out the 20-minute drop off bay 'which is not governed by any clamping warning signage and therefore it is not legal to clamp anyone in that bay'. Not mentioning you or your case, but just in general terms complaining about visitors being harassed for no reason and that she has seen the clamping van called to cars in that bay.

If she keeps a record of having disputed the legality of clamping in that bay now, it would be a very useful and reasonable piece of evidence to show in Court if you or visitors ever do get clamped there. 'The landlord was told that this was not a bay where clamping could be enforced but he ignored it' sort of thing.

HTH

HO87 · 31 January 2010 at 5:39PM

The fish symbol forming the "O" in the word Shoal on their website might just give the clue as to business one of the directors was involved in before he started managing car parks. Incidentally, the registrant of the website - Shoal Design Ltd - was dissolved in January 2007 and, consequently, is accurately described as a "non-trading individual" - however the url is now being used by a trading entity. Standby Nominet.

The company currently hide behind a PO Box in Waterlooville, Hants but would seem to operate from "offices" just outside Waterloovile.

jkdd77 · 31 January 2010 at 8:18PM

Unfortunately, most cowboy clampers ignore CCJs, so it would very difficult to actually make them pay up, and even in the unlikely event that you were successful, you wouldn't recover anything for the time, stress and hassle involved, either in the clamping, preparing your claim. or in attending court.

Given this, and given the usual refusal of the police to take any action over unlawful clamping, the best course of action if clamped over alleged past debts would seem to be to use an angle-grinder and give them a taste of their own medicine.

Coupon-mad wrote: »

If and when you park there again, be aware that IF they are stupid enough to clamp your car for this 'unpaid penalty' then this would be an illegal clamp (no-one can clamp to force payment of alleged debts). Trouble is, persuading the Police that this would be a criminal offence would be extremely difficult. You'd probably have to pay up under protest then take the scammers to Court. You'd get your money back but it would be such hassle!

HTH

Coupon-mad · 1 February 2010 at 6:58PM

jkdd77 wrote: »

Unfortunately, most cowboy clampers ignore CCJs, so it would very difficult to actually make them pay up, and even in the unlikely event that you were successful, you wouldn't recover anything for the time, stress and hassle involved, either in the clamping, preparing your claim. or in attending court.

Given this, and given the usual refusal of the police to take any action over unlawful clamping, the best course of action if clamped over alleged past debts would seem to be to use an angle-grinder and give them a taste of their own medicine.

In the 'unlikely' event of being successful in a small claim against private clamping? I would say the OP would be very likely to succeed if the bay has no appropriate signage.

And of course, if he did sue then he would have to sue the landlord as 'jointly and severally liable' to ensure that he would indeed get his money back.

No-one should ever sue a clamping firm on their own, the Court claim should always name the landowner as well. Sorry if that wasn't clear in my post, I took it as read.

If the GF in this case writes to the landlord up front now, as I suggested, then this would aid any of her visitors who ever fall foul of the clampers in this bay in the future. The Court would take a very dim view of a Landlord who had ignored valid information from a leaseholder and just got his agents to clamp away regardless.

Not sure the angle-grinder would be the best course of action for people who need to park in the same place again and again in the future. Clampers are mostly thugs after all and the car could come off worse in the long run.

jave · 25 June 2010 at 6:11PM

i have encountered a similar 'parking offence'. This one was issued by Civil Enforcement Limited, who seem to be based in Liverpool. I parked in the Co-Op customer car park in West Bridgford, Nottingham at around 7.30pm to 10pm (when the supermarket is actually closed), the car park was almost empty bar a few other cars that were parked there. Later in the week I received a penalty notice by post informing me of an apparent offence and that I could pay £45 within 14 days or £90 after or face court action. I thought this was quite sneaky and first went to the local police for advice who agreed. I did also attempt the company several times a day for a two week period to speak to someone but was always told I would be called back which eventually happened on the 14th day. After trawling through various forums I became suspicious and the phone call I took increased this. I asked what stage my 'offence' was at and was told it was 37 days overdue, I found this quite odd considering the alleged offence had taken place little over two weeks previous. For fear of a ccj I attempted to pay via their automated service but the payment could not be confirmed or authorised. I immeadiately contacted my credit company (MBNA) to look for any suspicious payments. I have since received another letter confirming the fee is now £90, after reading the above and simlar threads I have no intention of paying it but would like some advice on how best to deal with private parking companies - and also how they got my details in the first place.

Sorry for the essay!

Civil Penalty Notice - Parked for too long

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