Solar water heating, how much??

harryhound · 28 April 2007 at 10:38AM

kate2510 wrote: »

tr3mor wrote: »

I think this is the whole point.

Some "green" things are cheaper and good for the environment - compact fluorescent bulbs, buying veg from a local market, getting a smaller car, not eating ready meals, insulating your loft, etc.

The problem with these ideas is that other people think you are poor, rather than green.

Now we have to keep up with the ecological Joneses, people want to spend huge amounts of money on flashy things - solar panels, wind turbines, Priuses. Basically, anything marketed as green without looking at the real facts.

We have a cess pit for our cottage not mains drainage - a reed bed would be even better but I haven't the cash to seek planning permission at present.

I could not have put it better myself. it is like the paradox that people were healthier and happier during WWII, because there was a measured diet and a feeling of community, "We are all in this together".

"People think you are poor, rather than green:"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morton%27s_fork

On the subject of mains drainage: Do you need planning permission to build a reed bed ? I suppose it depends on your underlying soil type ? We don't want your output appearing as input to someone else's expensive new beat-the-hose-pipe-ban well even if their name is Jones.
Back in the 70's Shell (I think) appealed thru the highest legal courts to prevent cess pit emptying being cross subsidised. Ouch! With bankruptcy approaching, I built a septic tank by reading the British standard, getting some commercially available specifications, and chatting up the then water authority. It has saved me a fortune by halving my water bill (the sewage half) & abolishing cesspit emptying charges. It requires virtually no maintenance or intervention, grows superb runner beans along the run of the trickle pipe and I have a home built on clay that has NOT suffered cracking.

It can be dodgy if home is occupied by 6 or more people, especially teenage daughter & friends, indulging in strange bath time rituals involving "T" lites.
Would have needed a reed bed then if we did not live on a hill !
(Somehow I forgot to mention it to the council on the theory that no septic (oxygen deficient) water was leaving my land sideways or downwards).

Better get back on thread now; where had we got to: "Chinese evacuated tubes with pump driven by solar electricity, powered by the hottest April and 12 months on record". That should give the Jones something to envy.

Harry

500yearvision · 1 May 2007 at 1:30PM

I read the New Scientist & almost every week they report on an innovation which will make green technology more cost effective, alongside weekly articles on planetary changes due to global warming.

I'm sure that at some point in the past, solar panels were no more effective than sticking a black radiator on your roof. Luckily there are people around that devote their time to improving such technology.

TorThe · 4 May 2007 at 4:14PM

I think they would be cost efficient if they were placed on new build houses as so much of the labour and materials has to be spent installing roofs and heating systems, it's just a different kind. e.g. the cost of the panels is offset by the cost of the tiles you wouldn't have to have underneath them. the cost of the tank is offset by the cost of the normal tank and you would be getting all your plumbing and electricity fitted, so the difference in plumbing is negligible.
I have solar water heating and over the last year it has halved our gas bill. Like others on here it I didn't do it to save money I just thought it was a good thing to be doing, that's just a bonus.

Incidentally I am disappointed in the rude tone in some of the postings on here and the fact that this has not been pointed out by any of the subsequent supporters of this. Make your point but dont get personal please.

Cardew · 4 May 2007 at 7:38PM

TorThe wrote: »

I have solar water heating and over the last year it has halved our gas bill.

Incidentally I am disappointed in the rude tone in some of the postings on here and the fact that this has not been pointed out by any of the subsequent supporters of this. Make your point but dont get personal please.

It is far more disappointing, and I suggest far more important, that people persist in posting totally misleading information about savings on this website.

This misleading information invariably comes from those who have fitted solar panels and cannot bear to admit that their financial savings are meagre and it makes no sense in economic terms.

You claim that solar panels have halved your gas bills. Bearing in mind:

Firstly that solar panels only heat domestic hot water(DHW), and DHW only accounts for 10-15% of the average annual gas bill.

Secondly the most optimistic estimates say that a good solar system will provide 50% of DHW year round; which equates to a saving of 5% to 7.5% of a gas bill.

Thirdly the DTi carried out 8 independent tests(see post #41) on solar panels and the average output is approx 1,200kWh. Given that the average annual gas consumption is 20,500kWh, that saving correlates to the 5% to 7.5% saving on a gas bill.(leaving out the cost of electricity to run the pump)

Those savings are in the region of £25-£35pa. So one could conclude that your annual gas bill was in the region of £50 to £70 per year before your solar panels?

I don’t know any impersonal way of saying that your claim is unsupportable(or totally unrepresentative) and misleading to those who might contemplate fitting solar panels for economic reasons on this money saving website.

Perhaps you can explain to us how you conclude your gas bill has been halved over the past year?

annscullamus · 5 May 2007 at 12:06AM

Well, taking my life in both hands, and as such rude things have been said to me already - I just thought I would let people know that in the current glorious weather and since my last post of April 21st, I have turned off the gas water heating for 8 days 13 hours. I respectfully and carefully make no comment, but just let you all know, and we don't smell, and have had baths and done the washing up, just incase anyone thinks we have been living without hot water..........................

harryhound · 5 May 2007 at 3:53PM

Cardew wrote: »

It is far more disappointing, and I suggest far more important, that people persist in posting totally misleading information about savings on this website.

Thirdly the DTi carried out 8 independent tests(see post #41) on solar panels and the average output is approx 1,200kWh. Given that the average annual gas consumption is 20,500kWh, that saving correlates to the 5% to 7.5% saving on a gas bill.(leaving out the cost of electricity to run the pump)

Hi Cardew,

Good to read your penetrating analysis, and positive recommendations again.

I've done some back of the envelope calculations that show I'm using 6,900kWh of electricity (roughly 1/3rd 7 hour tariff and 2/3rd 17 hour tariff) and 9,000 kWh in the form of a tonne of anthracite (almost pure carbon?! I am doing my bit to keep up with the Chinese).
I also burn free wood, especially in the "shoulder" months of the year.
The 5 bed bungalow has good orientation on a S. facing hillside so this year I was able to stop the fire on 1st April. (Those glass houses built into an earth mound in Nottinghamshire didn't fall below 18 degrees this year I read somewhere - the best I can say for mine is that it has never in 35 years frozen up even left empty in the depths of winter).

I will be increasing my loft insulation and try to remember to turn off the now low energy lights, to see if I can get down the electricity figure this year.

Harry.

PS I have not yet given up on the Ground Source Heat Pump idea,
so I wrote to EDF, south of England's electric supplier (of mostley lovely low carbon nuclear power) I got the helpful advice that an upgraded meter, fuse box etc would likely cost me 400 GBP and in the meantime could I send in a cheque for 205 GBP to pay for a survey to see if there is enough juice in my wires to supply a GSHP. That is what you call positive encouragement to help the country achieve its 20% reduction by 2020. It is almost like Tesco asking for 10 GBP to hire the trolley, in case you decide not to buy anything in the shop.

Former_MSE_Forum_Manager · 10 May 2007 at 11:25AM

Hi Folks

Just a quick general note to all. I've been made aware of this thread and have actually enjoyed reading the informed discussion. However, at times it has skirted a little too close to personal comments which whilst not necessarily abusive, are certainly robust.

The points and discussion are good; can we just ensure that we keep it fact based and friendly. We don't want a good thread to be ruined or in need of moderation when it really doesn't need to.

Hapless_2 · 10 May 2007 at 11:56AM

I looked into solar water heating, but as this is a council property we have to wait to get the nod from them, i was quoted between £2500-£4000 (fully fitted) depending on the system. the reason we want it? We usually heat our water by wood burner and no the electric (wood of course from a sustainable source and for us free, wood being carbon neutral). but the summer makes it a bit hot to have the rayburn lit.
We are lookinginto a small microgeneration unit to charge up batteries that would run an inverter that could power our deep freeze and our tumble dryer. that set up would cost near £1,200 but that is a daylight panel which would even charge under a full moon.
With the inverters we could keep the broadband hub and freeview on and not feel guilty as they should not be switched off at the mains. Everyone goes on about cost, but my question is....
What price this species?
What price not lining the fat cats with their pay bonuses at the big energy companies?
Is saving a few pence off your bill the main reason or is saving mankind more important?
After all, despite what we do, in reality it is not about "saving the planet" but making sure that the Earth is still habitable for HUMANS. Man will become extinct, Earth will survive.

cazrobinson · 10 May 2007 at 12:29PM

http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/climate_change/article2527735.ece

interesting article, accompanied by articles on solar companies getting ever so rich on the back of being 'green' technology!

i'm waiting for solar-to-hot water to encompass my central heating or for solar-to-electric to get better at energy conversion before i invest.

Cardew · 10 May 2007 at 4:08PM

Hapless wrote: »

Everyone goes on about cost, but my question is....
What price this species?
What price not lining the fat cats with their pay bonuses at the big energy companies?
Is saving a few pence off your bill the main reason or is saving mankind more important?
After all, despite what we do, in reality it is not about "saving the planet" but making sure that the Earth is still habitable for HUMANS. Man will become extinct, Earth will survive.

Mindful of the gentle warning from the Moderator, I believe it is worth pointing out the following.

In his introduction to this Green and Ethical MoneySaving forum Martin stated:

my aim is this is a forum that will cover cost cutting and environmentally friendly and also ethical financial issues too.

The title of this particular thread is “Solar Water Heating – how much”

That indicates the primary object is to discuss costs associated with environmentally friendly and ethical practices.

Solar energy is viewed as probably the most environmentally friendly technology available and is surely appealing to just about everyone. That said, costs are a very real factor for most people in deciding whether to have a solar system.

It seems to me that armed with some realistic appraisal for costs of installation and potential savings, people can make the decision to purchase or not.

The biggest problem is that it is not easy to arm yourself with realistic information on costs when, on this highly respected website, unsupportable and even outrageous, claims are posted.

As the Moderator requests, can we not keep this thread fact based? I and others have firmly stated that Solar energy makes no financial sense and put what we believe to be facts to support our view. Is it not possible for those who believe we are wrong to challenge our facts?

I firmly believe that the majority of people would not spend thousands of pounds installing a system that will save £50 or so per year. I accept that some will be prepared to install solar, regardless of cost, for environmental reasons, and that is of course their prerogative. However it is not a matter of a "saving a few pence" as you put it, but usually £thousands are involved.

Solar water heating, how much??

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