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Help!!! House Deposit nightmare!
anifab
Posts: 6 Forumite
Hi All,
Have just spent an hour looking at the epic flat deposit thread on here and it sounds very similar to the nightmare my friends and I are having at the mo. Here's what has happened so far...
Moved into nice 3 bedroom semi in Sept 2005. Paid £1125 deposit and rent was £975 per month.
During the tenancy we were model tenants-we kept the place clean and tidy. We always paid our rent on time with one exception. This was due to the fact that even though we were in a 'shared' house, landlord insisted we have the rent coming out of a single account. We had standing orders set up for the first of each month and our rent went out on the third. One month (I think due to a bank holiday) our money went in late and there was not enough there so the payment bounced. The landlord told us about this within a couple of days and as soon as he did, we went to the bank and paid the rent into his account in cash (all the while apologising for any trouble we had caused!).
For about half of the time we lived in the house, we couldnt use the washing machine, as it was either broken or when it did work made a noise so loud, you could hear it from the street. When we asked the landlord to get it fixed, he came round, had a look inside and fished out some hair grips and a bra underwire from the drain. These must have come from the previous tenants as none of us were missing any such items. After that, the washing machine still did not work. We also asked numerous times for landlord to fix the toilet which did not flush properly but this was never done.
We moved out at the end of June 2006 and just to be sure we'd get all of our deposit money back, we spent 2 DAYS cleaning and making sure the house was spotless (I've experienced shady landlords before). There were one or two things we accepted we may lose money for. These were a small scuff mark on the wall on the stairway which was caused by us carrying the sofas which were provided for the living room up to the spare room (where they stayed the whole 10 months and were never used). We had also knocked over a (cheap) glass lampshade which had smashed. We moved out happy in the knowledge we would be getting at least 90% of our deposit back. The landlord and his girlfriend were present on the last day of the tenancy doing the garden so they saw how clean it was. they also agreed that one of us plus her boyf could stay for an extra week if they paid a weeks' rent (they were waiting for their new place to be ready). When housemate and boyf left, they left contact details for landlord as instructed. It took a month or two to hear back from council, gas electric etc about what we owed for final bills but as soon as they were paid, we sent the receipts to the house (as instructed by landlord) and called to say we had done so.
Then we heard nothing. We waited. We called landlord around october and he was on holiday and claimed he hadn't got the receipts and that the house had been left in a state when we left and they had paid out quite a lot in cleaners bills. We waited some more. We called and got no answer. In January we called again and agreed to send some more copies of final bill receipts.
We sent an initial letter in february enclosing copies of the final bill receipts and asking why our deposit had been witheld along with a request for copies of quotes and receips of any work they needed to do after we left which could not be covered under fair wear and tear and only to bring the property back to the standard in which we had taken it.
We got no reply
We sent another letter in March, repeating our request and threatening to take court action if we got no reply. A day before our 7 day deadline, we got a reply. The reply was quite a long letter. Some pionts included by (meanie) landlord were:
-Thanks for previous letters. Apology for delay. Reason is not having bills and then not having forwarding address as cleaners discarded them. Their accountant deals with all paperwork since sale of property and is on his winter holiday.
-Managed to contact Mr B of x cleaners who has sold his business but managed to provide copies of a letter, quote and receipt.
-Points out that tenancy agreement ended after the first 6 months and remainder was based on trust and no binding agreement in place from that time.
-Obvious that at least one of us sharing room with partner. Even if only occasionally still in breach of agreement.
-Defaulted once in rental payment by over 3 weeks resulting in bank charges.
-Washing machine in working order at start of tenancy but due to overloading, buttons, hair grips and an under wire caused damage costing over £90.
-Property was immaculate when moved in (otherwise we would not have agreed to the rent price), upon vacating was far from original condition and could not be just fair wear and tear. Enclose cheque for deposit minus cleaning charges.
Also included was a'summary' (of the appaling state we left the house in) 'quote' and 'receipt' from a cleaning company who apparently cleaned the place before we moved in. I suspect the landlord has got one of his dodgy buddies to knock it up, as there is a convenient little statement at the bottom of the 'summary' saying how nice and clean the house was after the previous tenants moved out and how the state they found it in after we left was not just due to wear and tear. I'm so suspicious about these documents because of the headed notepaper they are on. Of the 3 sheets of paper (all b&w photocopies), two list mr Bxxxx as proprieotor and one lists a mr J.Txxxxx even though the contact number (a mobile, of course) is the same. Interestingly, mr J.Txxxxx is our old landlords brother.
We have been charged for:
Replacing 14 halogen spotlights (they kept blowing-dodgy wiring)
Steam cleaning of the 2 sofas we never used
Steam cleaning of stair and landing carpets (which we hoovered regularly)
Cleaning of skirting boards and picture rails that were 'thick' with dust (the amount of crap-including chunks of plaster that came off picture rails when I dusted them clearly indicated they hadn't been touched since the house was renovated)
Re-decorating the hallway and stairs with 2 coats of paint as a result of a small scuff mark on the stairway
'Specialist' cleaning of kitchen blinds that were 'caked' with dust (I dusted them!)
Theres more but this post is too long already!
The cleaning charges seem extortionate- he has charged us £680 for stuff we feel is totally unjustified, but yet he has quotes and receipts to 'prove' the work was done. We are so angry :mad: :mad: :mad:
Do we have a chance in hell of winning if we take him to court to recover the rest of our deposit and should we cash the cheque he has sent us for our deposit minus his crazy charges?
Pleeease Help!:j
Have just spent an hour looking at the epic flat deposit thread on here and it sounds very similar to the nightmare my friends and I are having at the mo. Here's what has happened so far...
Moved into nice 3 bedroom semi in Sept 2005. Paid £1125 deposit and rent was £975 per month.
During the tenancy we were model tenants-we kept the place clean and tidy. We always paid our rent on time with one exception. This was due to the fact that even though we were in a 'shared' house, landlord insisted we have the rent coming out of a single account. We had standing orders set up for the first of each month and our rent went out on the third. One month (I think due to a bank holiday) our money went in late and there was not enough there so the payment bounced. The landlord told us about this within a couple of days and as soon as he did, we went to the bank and paid the rent into his account in cash (all the while apologising for any trouble we had caused!).
For about half of the time we lived in the house, we couldnt use the washing machine, as it was either broken or when it did work made a noise so loud, you could hear it from the street. When we asked the landlord to get it fixed, he came round, had a look inside and fished out some hair grips and a bra underwire from the drain. These must have come from the previous tenants as none of us were missing any such items. After that, the washing machine still did not work. We also asked numerous times for landlord to fix the toilet which did not flush properly but this was never done.
We moved out at the end of June 2006 and just to be sure we'd get all of our deposit money back, we spent 2 DAYS cleaning and making sure the house was spotless (I've experienced shady landlords before). There were one or two things we accepted we may lose money for. These were a small scuff mark on the wall on the stairway which was caused by us carrying the sofas which were provided for the living room up to the spare room (where they stayed the whole 10 months and were never used). We had also knocked over a (cheap) glass lampshade which had smashed. We moved out happy in the knowledge we would be getting at least 90% of our deposit back. The landlord and his girlfriend were present on the last day of the tenancy doing the garden so they saw how clean it was. they also agreed that one of us plus her boyf could stay for an extra week if they paid a weeks' rent (they were waiting for their new place to be ready). When housemate and boyf left, they left contact details for landlord as instructed. It took a month or two to hear back from council, gas electric etc about what we owed for final bills but as soon as they were paid, we sent the receipts to the house (as instructed by landlord) and called to say we had done so.
Then we heard nothing. We waited. We called landlord around october and he was on holiday and claimed he hadn't got the receipts and that the house had been left in a state when we left and they had paid out quite a lot in cleaners bills. We waited some more. We called and got no answer. In January we called again and agreed to send some more copies of final bill receipts.
We sent an initial letter in february enclosing copies of the final bill receipts and asking why our deposit had been witheld along with a request for copies of quotes and receips of any work they needed to do after we left which could not be covered under fair wear and tear and only to bring the property back to the standard in which we had taken it.
We got no reply
We sent another letter in March, repeating our request and threatening to take court action if we got no reply. A day before our 7 day deadline, we got a reply. The reply was quite a long letter. Some pionts included by (meanie) landlord were:
-Thanks for previous letters. Apology for delay. Reason is not having bills and then not having forwarding address as cleaners discarded them. Their accountant deals with all paperwork since sale of property and is on his winter holiday.
-Managed to contact Mr B of x cleaners who has sold his business but managed to provide copies of a letter, quote and receipt.
-Points out that tenancy agreement ended after the first 6 months and remainder was based on trust and no binding agreement in place from that time.
-Obvious that at least one of us sharing room with partner. Even if only occasionally still in breach of agreement.
-Defaulted once in rental payment by over 3 weeks resulting in bank charges.
-Washing machine in working order at start of tenancy but due to overloading, buttons, hair grips and an under wire caused damage costing over £90.
-Property was immaculate when moved in (otherwise we would not have agreed to the rent price), upon vacating was far from original condition and could not be just fair wear and tear. Enclose cheque for deposit minus cleaning charges.
Also included was a'summary' (of the appaling state we left the house in) 'quote' and 'receipt' from a cleaning company who apparently cleaned the place before we moved in. I suspect the landlord has got one of his dodgy buddies to knock it up, as there is a convenient little statement at the bottom of the 'summary' saying how nice and clean the house was after the previous tenants moved out and how the state they found it in after we left was not just due to wear and tear. I'm so suspicious about these documents because of the headed notepaper they are on. Of the 3 sheets of paper (all b&w photocopies), two list mr Bxxxx as proprieotor and one lists a mr J.Txxxxx even though the contact number (a mobile, of course) is the same. Interestingly, mr J.Txxxxx is our old landlords brother.
We have been charged for:
Replacing 14 halogen spotlights (they kept blowing-dodgy wiring)
Steam cleaning of the 2 sofas we never used
Steam cleaning of stair and landing carpets (which we hoovered regularly)
Cleaning of skirting boards and picture rails that were 'thick' with dust (the amount of crap-including chunks of plaster that came off picture rails when I dusted them clearly indicated they hadn't been touched since the house was renovated)
Re-decorating the hallway and stairs with 2 coats of paint as a result of a small scuff mark on the stairway
'Specialist' cleaning of kitchen blinds that were 'caked' with dust (I dusted them!)
Theres more but this post is too long already!
The cleaning charges seem extortionate- he has charged us £680 for stuff we feel is totally unjustified, but yet he has quotes and receipts to 'prove' the work was done. We are so angry :mad: :mad: :mad:
Do we have a chance in hell of winning if we take him to court to recover the rest of our deposit and should we cash the cheque he has sent us for our deposit minus his crazy charges?
Pleeease Help!:j
0
Comments
-
What you should have done was take pictures of the house on the day you moved in to prove what condition everything was in when you moved in.
Sorry cannot offer any other advice, though £975 pcm rent seems a little excessive for a 3bed semi, what part of the country is this house?0 -
<snip>
One month (I think due to a bank holiday) our money went in late and there was not enough there so the payment bounced. The landlord told us about this within a couple of days and as soon as he did, we went to the bank and paid the rent into his account in cash (all the while apologising for any trouble we had caused!). What did your tenancy say with regards to late payments? The norm is interest payable at 4% above the B.O.E base rate after the rent is 14 days late.
For about half of the time we lived in the house, we couldnt use the washing machine, as it was either broken or when it did work made a noise so loud, you could hear it from the street. When we asked the landlord to get it fixed, he came round, had a look inside and fished out some hair grips and a bra underwire from the drain. These must have come from the previous tenants as none of us were missing any such items. After that, the washing machine still did not work. We also asked numerous times for landlord to fix the toilet which did not flush properly but this was never done.
Do you have correspondence stating any of this?
We moved out at the end of June 2006 and just to be sure we'd get all of our deposit money back, we spent 2 DAYS cleaning and making sure the house was spotless (I've experienced shady landlords before). There were one or two things we accepted we may lose money for. These were a small scuff mark on the wall on the stairway which was caused by us carrying the sofas which were provided for the living room up to the spare room (where they stayed the whole 10 months and were never used). We had also knocked over a (cheap) glass lampshade which had smashed. We moved out happy in the knowledge we would be getting at least 90% of our deposit back. The landlord and his girlfriend were present on the last day of the tenancy doing the garden so they saw how clean it was. they also agreed that one of us plus her boyf could stay for an extra week if they paid a weeks' rent (they were waiting for their new place to be ready). When housemate and boyf left, they left contact details for landlord as instructed. It took a month or two to hear back from council, gas electric etc about what we owed for final bills but as soon as they were paid, we sent the receipts to the house (as instructed by landlord) and called to say we had done so.
The landlord is not responsible for bills if they were in tenants name, so this is not something you are required to do.
<snip>
We sent an initial letter in february enclosing copies of the final bill receipts and asking why our deposit had been witheld along with a request for copies of quotes and receips of any work they needed to do after we left which could not be covered under fair wear and tear and only to bring the property back to the standard in which we had taken it.
We got no reply
We sent another letter in March, repeating our request and threatening to take court action if we got no reply. A day before our 7 day deadline, we got a reply. The reply was quite a long letter. Some pionts included by (meanie) landlord were:
-Thanks for previous letters. Apology for delay. Reason is not having bills and then not having forwarding address as cleaners discarded them. Their accountant deals with all paperwork since sale of property and is on his winter holiday.
-Managed to contact Mr B of x cleaners who has sold his business but managed to provide copies of a letter, quote and receipt.
Sounds suspect
-Points out that tenancy agreement ended after the first 6 months and remainder was based on trust and no binding agreement in place from that time.
???
-Obvious that at least one of us sharing room with partner. Even if only occasionally still in breach of agreement.
Rubbish
-Defaulted once in rental payment by over 3 weeks resulting in bank charges.
Again, what does the tenancy agreement say?
-Washing machine in working order at start of tenancy but due to overloading, buttons, hair grips and an under wire caused damage costing over £90.
You will have to argue this point, has he provided a receipt?
-Property was immaculate when moved in (otherwise we would not have agreed to the rent price), upon vacating was far from original condition and could not be just fair wear and tear. Enclose cheque for deposit minus cleaning charges.
Who wouldn't have agreed to rent price?
Also included was a'summary' (of the appaling state we left the house in) 'quote' and 'receipt' from a cleaning company who apparently cleaned the place before we moved in. I suspect the landlord has got one of his dodgy buddies to knock it up, as there is a convenient little statement at the bottom of the 'summary' saying how nice and clean the house was after the previous tenants moved out and how the state they found it in after we left was not just due to wear and tear. I'm so suspicious about these documents because of the headed notepaper they are on. Of the 3 sheets of paper (all b&w photocopies), two list mr Bxxxx as proprieotor and one lists a mr J.Txxxxx even though the contact number (a mobile, of course) is the same. Interestingly, mr J.Txxxxx is our old landlords brother.
Sounds suspect
We have been charged for:
Replacing 14 halogen spotlights (they kept blowing-dodgy wiring)
You will have to pay
Steam cleaning of the 2 sofas we never used
Forget it
Steam cleaning of stair and landing carpets (which we hoovered regularly)
Cleaning of skirting boards and picture rails that were 'thick' with dust (the amount of crap-including chunks of plaster that came off picture rails when I dusted them clearly indicated they hadn't been touched since the house was renovated)
Re-decorating the hallway and stairs with 2 coats of paint as a result of a small scuff mark on the stairway
'Specialist' cleaning of kitchen blinds that were 'caked' with dust (I dusted them!)
The landlord is getting 'betterment', he has to allow for 'fair wear and tear'.
Theres more but this post is too long already!
The cleaning charges seem extortionate- he has charged us £680 for stuff we feel is totally unjustified, but yet he has quotes and receipts to 'prove' the work was done. We are so angry :mad: :mad: :mad:
Do we have a chance in hell of winning if we take him to court to recover the rest of our deposit and should we cash the cheque he has sent us for our deposit minus his crazy charges?
You have a good chance of 'winning'.
Pleeease Help!:j
Write him stating the points you are disputing.
Tell him what you consider to be a reasonable deduction from your deposit.
Cash the cheque and let him know that you are doing so, but are still pursuing the rest you are claiming.
In the letter, state how long you are giving him before you will apply to your local court for a hearing, let him know that if you win, he will be liable for the costs.Well life is harsh, hug me don't reject me.0 -
Did you sign an inventory when you moved in?
If not, he cannot prove the condition of the house at this time, so has no justification for deducting anything.
see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/I can spell - but I can't type0 -
The house was in a nice part of Manchester and was nice inside, hence the high rent.
We filled out the inventory and signed it but does the landlord need to have signed it too? Ours didn't. When we moved in, everything was in 'good' or 'very good' condition. When we moved out, it was probably cleaner than when we moved in!
The reason we are upset about being charged for the spotlights is because the amount is £54.
The so-called cleaning company he got in to do the work did not inspect the property until 2 weeks after we moved out. We were not invited to be present and we know that during the 2 weeks, the landlord was having work done on the house as he was selling it (he even showed one of our neighbours sons round while we were getting ready to move out!).
Part of the cleaning charge was labour at £14.50 an hour. The landlord said this saved us money because if he had done the cleaning, it would be considerably more as he values his time at alot more than that!!!!!!!
We don't have any written correspondence about the washing machine or toilet either.
Is there anything we can do to find out more about the dodgy cleaning company? I contacted companies house and they had no record so they said the cleaners must have been a sole trader. Is there anywhere I can get a list of Sole Traders?0 -
devils_advocate wrote: »Did you sign an inventory when you moved in?
If not, he cannot prove the condition of the house at this time, so has no justification for deducting anything.
see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/
Correct, the original poster needs to consider the amount of monies held back by the landlord, and the landlords reasons for doing the same, and first see if there are any points that he/they can agree with the landlord on. If not, then he/they need to write a polite and an asserted letter to the landlord, note that the Courts will/may later have sight of that letter, so be nice and no physical threats, being brief that unless the monies withheld from your deposit are not refunded to you within 10 working days, you will have no alternative than to take legal action to recover both the same together with your legal costs.
I say make your letter brief, since I have found when dealing with unscrupulous individuals such as your landlord, that if you provide them with arguments in the form of evidence, then they in turn come back with "arranged" counter arguments/evidence.
The reasons why we now have the landlords deposit scheme, is partly to address the tactics of landlords such as this one.
You might be able to complete your claim online via this link;
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/onlineservices/mcol/index.htm0 -
The house was in a nice part of Manchester and was nice inside, hence the high rent.
I don't know why you were asked this, it's irrelevant.
We filled out the inventory and signed it but does the landlord need to have signed it too? Ours didn't. When we moved in, everything was in 'good' or 'very good' condition. When we moved out, it was probably cleaner than when we moved in!
The reason we are upset about being charged for the spotlights is because the amount is £54.
Request a copy of the invoice for the purchase of the bulbs, if you don't have one. Allow £10 for fitting.
The so-called cleaning company he got in to do the work did not inspect the property until 2 weeks after we moved out. We were not invited to be present and we know that during the 2 weeks, the landlord was having work done on the house as he was selling it (he even showed one of our neighbours sons round while we were getting ready to move out!).
Part of the cleaning charge was labour at £14.50 an hour. The landlord said this saved us money because if he had done the cleaning, it would be considerably more as he values his time at alot more than that!!!!!!!
You need to be clear that the flat did not need professional cleaning.
The landlord can only charge about £9 per hour for his personal labour.
We don't have any written correspondence about the washing machine or toilet either.
Refuse to pay for the washing machine, forget about the toilet.
Is there anything we can do to find out more about the dodgy cleaning company? I contacted companies house and they had no record so they said the cleaners must have been a sole trader. Is there anywhere I can get a list of Sole Traders?I would forget about trying to discredit the cleaning company, stick with the fact that the property was cleaned to an acceptable standard.
He is trying it on, Find out the costs of going to your local magistrates court and include the cost in your response to him.Well life is harsh, hug me don't reject me.0 -
Thanks for the advice. Our next step will be to write a letter explaining that we feel the charges are excessive and in places, unjustifiable. How can we be expected to have kept the place in the same condition if he had cleaners steam clean carpets and sofas before we moved in? We didn't have industrial cleaning equipment, just mop, hoover, feather duster and cloths?
How are we to defend ourselves in court against this when he can produce the (albeit dodgy) statement of works, invoice and receipt for works carried out?
We know we are in the right and were good tenants but his letter and other documents he's provided make us out to be people who didnt care about looking after his property. It's so unfair.0 -
Call Mr B up & ask. Not really relevent since they cannot insist on professional cleaning. Only cleaning to the level of the house when you moved in, subject to fair wear & tear.-Managed to contact Mr B of x cleaners who has sold his business but managed to provide copies of a letter, quote and receipt.
What the OFT says:-Obvious that at least one of us sharing room with partner. Even if only occasionally still in breach of agreement.
Though if this was a girlfriend/boyfriend coming round from time to time - every weekend & the odd week doesn't weem unreasonable, I think they would be laughed out of court.The tenant must not assign underlet or part with or share possession of the whole or any part of the property without the permission of the landlord, such permission not to be unreasonably withheld.
Ask them to provide evidence for this, otherwise:-Defaulted once in rental payment by over 3 weeks resulting in bank charges.
pp84-86 of OFT unfair terms guidlines (link below)-Washing machine in working order at start of tenancy but due to overloading, buttons, hair grips and an under wire caused damage costing over £90.
Ask them for proof of causes of damage - did they provide (as required by law) instructions for all electrical items?
This is outrageous bo||ocks -once the tenancy finished you moved onto a periodic tenancy. There was no trust there at all.Points out that tenancy agreement ended after the first 6 months and remainder was based on trust and no binding agreement in place from that time.
Ask them to provide a copy of the inventory that was agreed with you when moved in. (What they didn't do that? Shame)-Property was immaculate when moved in (otherwise we would not have agreed to the rent price), upon vacating was far from original condition and could not be just fair wear and tear. Enclose cheque for deposit minus cleaning charges.
Really they are trying this on, but be polite as you hammer them into the ground for this.
OFT Link - very useful:
http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/unfair_contract_terms/oft356.pdf
Good luck"Mrs. Pench, you've won the car contest, would you like a triumph spitfire or 3000 in cash?" He smiled.
Mrs. Pench took the money. "What will you do with it all? Not that it's any of my business," he giggled.
"I think I'll become an alcoholic," said Betty.0 -
I'd go straight to small claims with this - after giving him appropriate notice etc.
My main thought was that if the cleaning business was legit then they would have had an ad in yellow pages - would the local library have some old copies?0
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