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Grace period
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Coupon-mad wrote: »
By the way, NONE of this (below text) can be used if your first appeal said who the driver was, you'd have to lose any POFA reference as drivers are not covered by the Act. Hope not but it sounded as if you may have said 'my ticket' at first appeal stage & written about what happened?:
I think you may have a valid point. Sadly I sent my initial appeal in before seeking advice from this forum so I didn't have the benefit of all this wonderful advice. I was naive to believe I had a valid case and responded with honesty. I'll check the original wording and remove that section if necessary. Thank you0 -
salmosalaris wrote: »You can clarify the grace period better
The CoP in 13.2 and 13.4 require
a. A grace period to study and accept the t&c
And
b a minimum of 10 minutes to exit the car park
Even if the assessor does not accept your argument that the contract began on receipt of your payment but accepts PE's ANPR timings as the period of parking they are still in breach if the CoP as no allowance whatsoever has been allowed for a.Remember when the BPA announced the 10 minute grace period to bring it into line with councils; well clearly it's not the same thing.
In council car parks you get a 10 minute grace period for parking but for BPA members it's a 10 minute stay (or on site) period. The difference is of course down to using ANPR, (BPA) rather than boots on the ground, (Councils).
the specific wording from the current CoP is;
13.2 You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action.
13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.
18.3 Specific parking-terms signage tells drivers what your terms and conditions are, including your parking charges. You must place signs containing the specific parking terms throughout the site, so that drivers are given the chance to read them at the time of parking or leaving their vehicle. Keep a record of where all the signs are. Signs must be conspicuous and legible, and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read and understand. Signs showing your detailed terms and conditions must be at least 450mm x 450mm.
so;
there should be a 'grace period' for the driver to read & understand the signs at the time of parking or leaving their vehicle (say couple of minutes?, if you then need to find & use a ticket machine, then additional time needs to be added, lets say another 5 minutes)
those signs should be easy to see, read and understand whilst the driver is either still in the vehicle or next to it
they accept that it takes time to leave the car park (minimum 10 minutes), therefore it also takes time to enter the car park & find a space to park in prior to reading the signs (lets use their own 10 minutes)
this gives us;
enter site & get recorded by ANPR
10 minutes to find space & park
2 minutes to read signage
(+5 minutes to use ticket machine)
10 minutes to leave site
therefore, the ANPR system should allow a minimum 22 minutes over the 'allowed' parking period0 -
Here you go
POPLA appeal
Xxxxxxxxxx
1.No Breach of Contract
The following is a summary of events
14:32 ANPR records vehicle entering car parking area (evidenced)
14:33 to 14:40 Driver looks for parking space, parks vehicle, locates sign and reads payment instructions
14:41 Driver telephones 0330 xxxxxxx to pay for 2 hour tariff (evidenced)
14:44 Ticket is processed (evidenced)
14:45 Payment process completed and telephone call ended (evidenced)
16:42 ANPR records vehicle leaving site (evidenced)
As you can see, payment for 2 hours parking was accepted at 14:44 and the vehicle actually departed the car park within 1 hr 58 mins of this payment. In a car park with both ANPR and a separate method to record the actual parking time, then the latter must be the overriding method for the parking start time, provided it was purchased at the earliest opportunity, which in this case it was.
The contract for parking began at 14.44 and ended at the latest at 16.42, 2 minutes under the permissible 2 hrs paid for.
I therefore contend that the contravention did not occur and there was no breach of contract.
Under the principle of contra proferentem an ambiguous contractual term must be read in a manner most favourable to the motorist . In this situation the word "stay" is ambiguous as the operator is relying on this beginning at a time which was not brought to the notice of the driver and is clearly open to a different interpretation .
2. Inadequate grace period
If the assessor does not accept that there was no breach of contract and relies upon the ANPR timings as the length of the stay an inadequate grace period has been given as required by the BPA Code of Practice to which Parking Eye must adhere.
The code states :
13 Grace periods
13.1 Your approach to parking management must allow a driver who enters your car park but decides not to park, to leave the car park within a reasonable period without having their vehicle issued with a parking charge notice.
13.2 You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action.
13.3 You should be prepared to tell us the specific grace period at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask what it is.
13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.
The length of the stay was 2hrs 10 minutes according to the ANPR readings. A grace period OF GREATER THAN 10 MINUTES must be offered , 10 minutes to exit the car park and an unspecified period to study , accept the terms and make payment.
Parking Eye are operating in breach of the Code of Practice.
3.No Authority
As ParkingEye do not have proprietary interest in the land then I demand that they produce an unredacted copy of the contract with the landowner that authorises them to offer contracts for parking in their name, issue Parking Charge Notices and take legal action in their name for breach of contract. I do not believe they have such
4. Not a genuine pre estimate of loss - case can be distinguished from Parking Eye v Beavis
The contract entered into between the driver and ParkingEye is a simple financial consumer contract. An offer of parking for a set sum was made and in return payment was made. This makes plain that the sum of £100 being demanded is nothing other than a penalty clause designed to profit from inadvertent errors or minor underpayment, and is consequently unenforceable. As this is a simple financial contract any claim for liquidated damages for breach of contract must represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss. If ParkingEye believe that inadequate payment was made (which their PCN fails to make clear and which I deny ) their demand should be for any unpaid tariff as that would be their only loss. The vehicle was parked for an authorised stay that was fully paid for. £100 is quite clearly not a genuine pre estimate of their loss and is clearly extravagant and unconscionable compared to the supposed unpaid tariff. If ParkingEye believe their charge is a genuine pre-estimate of their loss I demand they produce a detailed and itemised breakdown of this.
I would refer the POPLA adjudicator to the persuasive remarks of Sir Timothy Lloyd in the judgment handed down by the Court of Appeal in the case of ParkingEye v Barry Beavis. In that situation the penalty charge was justified on the basis that it was necessary to deter motorists staying longer than allowed to facilitate the turnover of free parking places. It was determined that the contract was not a financial one in that there was no economic transaction between ParkingEye and the motorist.
This is in stark contrast to the present case where there was an economic transaction between ParkingEye and the motorist, and no restriction on the time of stay was made provided payment was made.
This car park is no different to any other commercial enterprise. There can be no argument of commercial justification allowing what would otherwise be a clear penalty, simply because a small payment was purportedly not made when the vehicle would otherwise have been welcome to park as it did.
A contractual term which imposes the requirement to pay a disproportionately large sum for failing to pay a far smaller one is the very essence of an unlawful penalty. Analysis of paragraphs 43-51 from the judgment clearly demonstrates that the Court of Appeal would have considered the charge in this case as an unenforceable penalty. This case can be clearly distinguished from that of ParkingEye v Beavis the judgment in which is irrelevant in this situation.
Any reliance on the Supreme Court judgment in the case of Parking Eye v Beavis should also be disregarded as the judgment simply reaffirms that the decision in that case was based on the use of that particular car park which was free and the charge justified to ensure motorists left within 2 hours for the good of all other drivers and the facility . As previously mentioned in this situation there is no such justification.
5. Unfair term
The charge is quite clearly an unfair contractual term under UTCCR 1999 and is consequently unenforceable.
a. The charge of £100 is clearly grossly disproportionate to any purported loss which would only be a small parking tariff if no payment had been made at all, which evidence shows was not the case
b. The contract causes an imbalance in the rights and obligations of the parties to the detriment of the motorist.
c. The word stay is ambiguous and must be read in the manner most favourable to the consumer. In this situation the start of the stay is most advantageous when read as the moment payment was made .
d. 'The unfairness of two timings and the operator favouring the one which is unfairly and secretly backdated and acts disadvantageously to consumers is clearly contrary to the concepts of fair dealing, openness, reasonableness and good faith'
6. The Registered Keeper is not liable
I am the registered keeper and Parking Eye do not have the identity of the driver.
As ParkingEye has failed to satisfy the requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act I cannot be liable for the charge .
a.The unpaid parking charge that should have been requested ( paragraph 9(1) of the Act ) is that which was unpaid on the day before the Notice to Keeper was issued. This can only be the purportedly unpaid parking tariff and not £100 which had not been requested and which there was no facility to pay on the day before the Notice to Keeper was issued. Consequently £100 cannot be considered unpaid for the purposes of the Act. It clearly demonstrates that ParkingEye has failed to satisfy the requirements of the Act and cannot rely on it. At no time was the registered keeper asked to pay the purportedly unpaid tariff.
b. ParkingEye have failed to notify me why the parking charge is due as is required by the Act. Their generic template PCN indicates that the vehicle supposedly stayed longer than was authorised or was not authorised at all. Which is it? The Act demands that the reason for the charge is made clear and again ParkingEye have failed to comply with the requirements of the Act and consequently cannot rely on its provisions.
7. Inadequate accuracy of ANPR camera
Parking Eye are required to provide evidence that their ANPR systems are fully calibrated in accordance with the criteria laid down with the ICO and BPA code of practice and that the system is also calibrated with any payment options available on location.Without such there is no proof that these timings are accurate for evidential purposes.
8.Other requirements
As a third party payment system is operational at this location, any landowner contract and supplementary site specific user manual, must also provide evidence that this company has a contract with the landowner permitting the following:
a) payments by this system
b) ParkingEye have a contractual agreement with the pay by phone company granting this consent for use at this location.
c) No DPA rights have been contravened as a consequence of using such a system
d) Full planning consent is in force for the ANPR use and signage at the location.
The driver on the date in question made payment using a third party pay by phone provider and therefore it is deemed that ParkingEye do not have any right to recover any charges as revenue from the tariffs typically go directly to the landowner and payment was made to a separate trading entity.
These valid points aside; I conclude by returning to the initial argument for which there is clear supporting evidence from both parties for allowing the appeal:
P53 of ParkingEye evidence shows that start time of ticket purchased through pay by phone was 14:44:41, end time 16:44:41, and that exit from the car park was 16:42:33. So departure was within the time paid for.
The driver has provided evidence to show that the outgoing phone call was started at 14:41 and lasted 4 mins.
This leaves a time of 9 minutes in which the driver looked for a suitable parking place, (which incidentally is not easy as the bays are not all clearly defined), located the nearest sign to read the instructions to pay by phone and then made the phone call.
This was all within a reasonable grace period.
The appeal should be upheld on every point0 -
Looks like you've already done it! I would also add a summary/list the 8 points together at the start, (so the assessor sees an outline of the submission) before expanding on them one by one in the text in the main submission that follows - see example in this thread (ignore the actual content)
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5354956
I suspect that PE may submit no evidence on this one, given some of the posts in this thread... we'll see!Bournemouth - home of the Mighty Cherries0 -
6. The Registered Keeper is not liable
He can't have that point if he's appealed as driver but all the rest, yes, why not? 'No GPEOL' is an argument when so different from Beavis.
I do recommend including words to the affect (maybe under the Unfair Terms appeal point) that 'The unfairness of two timings and the operator favouring the one which is unfairly and secretly backdated and acts disadvantageously to consumers is clearly contrary to the concepts of fair dealing, openness, reasonableness and good faith'.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
but has he ?
need to see the original appeal
If all he said was I paid that does not identify the driver . But would he be the contracting party still ?
I'd just leave it in , no harm done if they reject that point anyway0 -
Looks like you've already done it! I would also add a summary/list the 8 points together at the start, (so the assessor sees an outline of the submission) before expanding on them one by one in the text in the main submission that follows.
I suspect that PE may submit no evidence on this one, given some of the posts in this thread... we'll see!
unnecessary0 -
Coupon-mad wrote: »He can't have that point if he's appealed as driver but all the rest, yes, why not? 'No GPEOL' is an argument when so different from Beavis.
I do recommend including words to the affect (maybe under the Unfair Terms appeal point) that 'The unfairness of two timings and the operator favouring the one which is unfairly and secretly backdated and acts disadvantageously to consumers is clearly contrary to the concepts of fair dealing, openness, reasonableness and good faith'.
I've done it and edited my post0 -
salmosalaris wrote: »unnecessary
It was just a suggestion to keep it tidy and clear for the assessor. Guess not worth bothering with that bit then.... I'll keep me head downBournemouth - home of the Mighty Cherries0 -
It was just a suggestion to keep it tidy and clear for the assessor. Guess not worth bothering with that bit then.... I'll keep me head down
no offence intended :-), but IMHO the OP doesn't need to mess around with this anymore. There's enough in there to at least make things a little tricky if POPLA do have to assess this.
Send it off and get on with life .0
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