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Parking Eye, Sankt Augustin Retail Park, Grantham

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  • g0wfv
    g0wfv Posts: 212 Forumite
    Fifth Anniversary 100 Posts
    Guys_Dad wrote: »
    Obviously it would have been better to raise this point before submitting your POPLA appeal but as you didn't have this to hand then make a major point now.
    Agreed! How is the question?! I am planning at this stage to await the evidence pack's arrival (contacting POPLA if it hasn't arrived by the 21st/22nd to request more time.) I shall be rebutting the evidence, but I feel I may have to follow CM's uncharted route through email with reference within the 2000 char comments field and hope (pray) they allow it. I shall mention the convoluted contractual authority route from PE to the landowner.
    hoohoo wrote:
    I don't know what you sent to popla but the main point is that no offence occurred because the vehicle visited twice.
    This was my first, although not most in depth appeal point. There is unfortunately no evidence to support this. Cash was used in one instance, with no receipt being kept (dog food!) and the other visit resulted in no purchases after visiting a number of outlets but not finding anything suitable (kids' shoes!) Witness statements from the drivers are the way to go I think (should this need to go further!)

    Mobile phone tracking (Google in this case) is very open to alteration - any advocate worth their salt would surely be able to discredit this as evidence! That said, both journeys have been tracked and do show an interim return home. I'm just not sure of its reliability as evidence.
  • g0wfv
    g0wfv Posts: 212 Forumite
    Fifth Anniversary 100 Posts
    The following has now been received from C&W ...
    Dear XXXXX,

    I refer to your note below concerning a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) received from Parking Eye at St. August in Retail Park, Grantham. My apologies for the slight delay getting back to you. We manage the site on behalf of South Yorkshire Pensions Authority and the parking management is there to prevent often misuse of the car park and I’ve been gathering information from Parking Eye on the charge in question. I understand that, despite you assertion below of 2 separate visits by the same vehicle, Parking Eye, having reviewed footage, can only see the vehicle entering and exiting once. The vehicle entered at 12.28 and left at 15.34 staying in total 3 hours and 6 mins which is well over the time allowance I’m afraid.

    The above notwithstanding, you may or may not be aware that you can appeal to Parking Eye providing suitable evidence that you were a genuine shopper on the park. I understand that to date no such evidence has been presented and you have only written to Parking Eye to request the fine be rescinded which is unlikely to bear any fruit. If you were a genuine shopper and can provide copies of receipts as proof of purchase then Parking Eye will invariably rescind the PCN. I would stress though that if a motorist appeals in with proof of shopping Parking Eye can cancel a charge as long as the amount spent ties in with the amount of time a customer has stayed on site. Their appeals team wouldn’t necessarily accept an appeal if a motorist provides a receipt for £1.99 but stayed on site over 6 hours for example. Their appeals team will always use discretion.

    I’m more than happy to pass on any copies of receipts you can send through to me to help expedite the process. I look forward to hearing from you. Many thanks.

    Kind regards
    ... to which I have replied ...
    Good afternoon,

    Thankyou for your prompt reply.

    Whilst I was not aware that ParkingEye may rescind the parking charge if I prove that I was a genuine shopper, in this instance, I am unable to do so.

    This was due to the following reasons:

    The first visit between approximately 1230 and 1320 (timings taken from Google location history) was fruitless; we visited 2 outlets on the site (Brantano and Sports Direct) in search of shoes for both of our boys, however were unable to find anything suitable. We also visited Home Bargains, but again left without purchasing due to the children playing up, so we left and returned home (Google location has us arriving home at approximately 1350).

    The second visit was a flying visit (approximately 10 minutes) involving a purchase from Pets At Home for dog food which was paid in cash with no receipts being kept. This visit according to Google location history ended at approximately 1530.

    So now I find myself in the position that I am unable to prove I was a "genuine shopper" in the sense that I spent money in the outlets on site.

    With regards to ParkingEye having checked their records, it is a well documented fact that ANPR technology is not without its faults and can be liable to misreading number plates or indeed completely missing a number plate altogether (http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/how-parking-operators-use-anpr.html)

    I believe it is also within your power as ParkingEye's principal to apply your own discretion in this matter and would like to request that you consider doing so.
  • g0wfv
    g0wfv Posts: 212 Forumite
    Fifth Anniversary 100 Posts
    OK, the précis of a phone call (see this thread) to (new) POPLA is as follows ...

    Evidence sent independently will go to the address that a PPC has on their file for you (RK details from DVLA request) as POPLA are unable, due to data protection laws, to send on any address you submit to them on the appeal (we moved house between initial appeal to PE and POPLA appeal submission - not a problem as we are getting our mail through regular contact with the new tenants of the old property - kids go to the same school so see them daily - phew!)

    I was assured that any evidence sent to me independently *WILL* be the same as that sent to POPLA (in the operative's experience). Quite how they can guarantee this was not really answered when I pressed them, however any objection about the process and the potential ability for a PPC to submit one set of evidence to POPLA and another to the motorist should be addressed to the "governing body" which was later given to me as being the BPA.

    POPLA are more than willing to allow extra time should the independently sent evidence pack arrive late, however they expect you to chase it with the PPC involved, including giving new address details in our case! (Does this go against advice on here not to engage with the PPC post initial appeal?)

    5 days left to rebut - still no evidence received by me from PE!
  • Leigh5t
    Leigh5t Posts: 34 Forumite
    Seventh Anniversary Combo Breaker
    I've had a letter from popla to inform me that they have received the case file from the ppc.

    Just like they've said to you, It goes on to say "..... if I you have not received your copy then please contact the operator directly"

    Has this always been the advice from popla?
  • g0wfv
    g0wfv Posts: 212 Forumite
    Fifth Anniversary 100 Posts
    Leigh5t wrote: »
    I've had a letter from popla to inform me that they have received the case file from the ppc.

    Just like they've said to you, It goes on to say "..... if I you have not received your copy then please contact the operator directly"

    Has this always been the advice from popla?
    I'm not sure what old POPLA's advice was, but I have today spoken to both ParkingEye and POPLA to chase our copy of the evidence pack.

    The PE representative (after speaking to her manager) said that they don't send the evidence directly to the appellant. I did point out that the POPLA site says that is what they are doing, and that according to the "system" we're meant to get a copy to comment on. PE referred me back to POPLA.

    POPLA are unable to send a copy of the evidence and rely on the PPC to do so, consequently they are escalating this with PE and also noting on our appeal to pause until we receive the evidence at which point they'll start the 7 days over.

    CM (if you see this) have you come across this situation yet?
  • g0wfv
    g0wfv Posts: 212 Forumite
    Fifth Anniversary 100 Posts
    So the evidence pack showed up a couple of hours after I last posted!

    For those familiar with PE's standard template evidence, I shall save them the pain of reading it yet again by not posting it, but I will add that they did not provide a contract; just the usual statement that they have permission etc etc ...

    Here's my rebuttal (slightly over the 2000 chars allowed!)
    ParkingEye (PE) provided their evidence pack to you on 16 October 2015. I received a copy of this evidence sent independently to me by PE on 22 October 2015. This is my rebuttal of the evidence they have provided – I shall take each of my original points in order. These were as follows:

    1. PE has not correctly captured exit and re-entry by the same vehicle.

    2. Unclear, non-compliant and unlawful signage which created no contract.

    3. Lack of standing/authority from landowner.

    4. Unreasonable/unfair terms.

    5. The charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss.

    1. PE has not correctly captured exit and re-entry by the same vehicle.

    PE has not submitted any evidence that the vehicle was parked on site for the whole 3 hours and 6 minutes. They have merely submitted photographs of the front of the vehicle at an arbitrary location at 1228 hrs and the rear of the vehicle at another arbitrary location at 1524 hrs. To prove beyond doubt that the vehicle remained in the car park for the entire period, PE would require supplemental evidence such as photos of the vehicle parked in the same marked bay at various points throughout the period stated. They have not provided this.

    They have not stated that they have performed a manual check of other photographic evidence taken during this period as requested, nor have they addressed the points I raise about ANPR accuracy.

    2. Unclear, non-compliant and unlawful signage which created no contract.

    PE has provided evidence of signage location and format which is dated November and December 2014. As can be seen from the plan that I submitted with my appeal, not all of these signs have survived the interim period and were not present on the date in question, or the date of a subsequent visit to collect evidence to support my appeal. Looking at imagery taken by Google Street View dated May 2015 at least 2 signs that PE has noted on their site plan are missing.

    PE have failed to provide evidence of the signs’ legal status in accordance with the Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) (England) Regulations 2007. I reiterate my appeal point that these signs are illegal as they do not comply with extant legislation and they are currently subject to enforcement action by South Kesteven District Council.

    3. Lack of standing/authority from landowner.

    PE state that they “… can confirm that the above site is on private land, is not council owned, and that we have written authority to operate and issue Parking Charge Notices at this site from the landowner (or landowner’s agent).”

    The chain of authority at this site is rather convoluted:

    a. The landowner is Buckminster Estate (BE).

    b. The tenant is the South Yorkshire Pension Authority (SYPA).

    c. The manager of the land is Cushman & Wakefield (CW).

    This raises the question with whom does PE have a contract to manage the parking on this site?

    At each stage it is reasonable to assume that a tenancy agreement or contract is in place which lays out the responsibilities and authorities of the tenant or agent. As PE has not named their principal; it could be any of the three bodies mentioned above. If the principal is not BE, does the principal to PE’s contract have the authority to offer a contract, or indeed the authority to authorise PE to issue claims in their own name? None of these questions are answerable by the statement issued by PE in their evidence. To answer this question, a third party would require sight of the tenancy agreement between BE and SYPA; the contract to manage the land between SYPA and CW; and the contract between PE and their unidentified principal – none of which have been provided.

    To attempt to reinforce their right to enforce the alleged contract PE refer to Fairlie v Fenton (1870) LR 5 Ex 169. This case dealt with the question as to whether a cotton broker could sue in his own name upon contracts made by him as broker, ie the middle-man between two contracting parties. If acting as broker, Fairlie v Fenton fails to support PE’s assertion that they can enforce the alleged contract in their own name; it actually supports my case and PE if acting as broker cannot enforce the contract!

    If PE are in fact acting as an agent and entering into a contract in their own name they must render themselves “... personally liable on the contract …” (PE’s quote). PE’s signage states “We are not responsible for the car park surface, damage or loss to or from vehicles or general site safety” thereby denying liability. Ergo, they are unable to enforce the contract entered into in their own name by relying on the case law they have quoted.

    4. Unreasonable/unfair terms.

    5. The charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss
    .

    I will deal with appeal points 4 and 5 together as PE seem to have done in their evidence.

    PE’s evidence addressing these two points centres around select quotes from ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis and Wardley (2014) a case on which they have relied at all stages throughout. As I am sure you are well aware, and PE acknowledge in their evidence, that this Court of Appeal judgement is subject to an appeal in the Supreme Court. The hearing for this case concluded on 23 July 2015 and a judgment has not yet been forthcoming. It is a possibility that the Court of Appeal judgments could be overturned therefore PE should not rely on these judgements when there is an as yet unclear outcome to the Supreme Court appeal.

    My appeal should be heard assuming that any Court of Appeal judgments subject to appeal cannot be relied upon in law or at worst my appeal should be adjourned until judgment has been passed.

    Taking into account this rebuttal I again respectfully request you allow my appeal.

    Advice would be very welcome - especially with my closing remark about Beavis. I wonder if an argument along these lines carries any weight?
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 151,077 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    You'll win if they have not included landowner authority at all (is there a witness statement?).
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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  • g0wfv
    g0wfv Posts: 212 Forumite
    Fifth Anniversary 100 Posts
    Not even a witness statement, CM!
  • Guys_Dad
    Guys_Dad Posts: 11,025 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    PE state that they “… can confirm that the above site is on private land, is not council owned, and that we have written authority to operate and issue Parking Charge Notices at this site from the landowner (or landowner’s agent).”

    The chain of authority at this site is rather convoluted:

    a. The landowner is Buckminster Estate (BE).

    b. The tenant is the South Yorkshire Pension Authority (SYPA).

    c. The manager of the land is Cushman & Wakefield (CW).

    This raises the question with whom does PE have a contract to manage the parking on this site?..........................et seq

    Excellent. This type of wording should form part of every appeal where the PPC client is not the actual landowner, such as a supermarket leasing land from the actual landowner.

    The point in question is "Irrespective of the contract with the PPC, does the other party actually have proof that they are in a position to make the contract in the first place"

    The first class wording of this appeal demonstrates precisely the way to challenge the basis of the PPC/landowner contract.
  • g0wfv
    g0wfv Posts: 212 Forumite
    Fifth Anniversary 100 Posts
    A question for Coupon-mad ...

    Have you had any feedback from POPLA as to whether they accepted the email referenced in the 2000 char comments box approach? Obviously you've had a favourable result, but did they adjudicate based on the comments box, or did they actually accept the email?

    Incidentally, I've just tried to comment along abbreviated lines of the above but gave up when I got to point 3 and still couldn't abbreviate it enough to fit into 2000 characters!

    I'm minded to just refer them to an email in the comments box and send a PDF - I just don't want to throw it all away at this stage!

    I feel another phone call coming on (I need to ring them anyway!)
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