IMPORTANT: Please make sure your posts do not contain any personally identifiable information (both your own and that of others). When uploading images, please take care that you have redacted all personal information including number plates, reference numbers and QR codes (which may reveal vehicle information when scanned).
We're aware that some users are experiencing technical issues which the team are working to resolve. See the Community Noticeboard for more info. Thank you for your patience.
📨 Have you signed up to the Forum's new Email Digest yet? Get a selection of trending threads sent straight to your inbox daily, weekly or monthly!

Excel Parking - Appeal denied, what next?

Options
2

Comments

  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 152,019 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    edited 19 May 2013 at 4:38PM
    All 3 other boxes apart from the 'stolen' one. You are not restricted one box only.

    And your POPLA appeal is far too short. You are unlikely to win by relying on that alone and why would you just rely on that when you've had the above advice and links? We have given you links to show what constitutes a winning POPLA appeal and IT IS NOT ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED ON THE DAY ALONE. Please look again at the proper, strongly-worded POPLA appeal challenges in my post #6 and #9 above - I didn't link them for fun you know...

    Also there's a quote on here from the BPA in a reply to Guy's Dad, stating that where machines are broken then enforcement should cease - or words to that effect (have a look at Guy's Dad's recent posts to find it and include the BPA's statement in your POPLA appeal as evidence of operational guidelines published by the PPC's own Trade Body - that they've ignored!).

    And finally, I can vouch for kirkbyinfurnesslad who is trustworthy to help you with this POPLA wording.

    You need lots more, do not rush this!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
    Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 43,379 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    lgb2909 wrote: »
    I have had such a busy week but have finally gotten around to trying to complete my appeal. I'm not sure which box to tick on the POPLA form - the four options are

    - the vehicle was not improperly parked
    - the vehicle was stolent (obviously it's not this one!)
    - the parking charge (ticket) exceeded the appropriate amount
    - I am not liable for the parking charge

    I have also written the following statement explaining the situation. I don't think there really is anything more to say as it's straightforward IMO.

    At 12.32pm on Sunday 24 March 2013 I entered the Cavendish Retail Park Car Park. I attempted to obtain a parking ticket however both machines were out of order. I displayed a notice in my windscreen stating ‘TICKET MACHINES NOT WORKING’ and the date and time. I also spoke to other motorists who were experiencing the same issue and, on looking at other cars, I was not the only motorist not able to display a ticket.

    I then went about my shopping and left the car park at 12.51pm (times are shown on the original PCN). I did look around but, it being a Sunday, there was no member of staff to speak to regarding the machine problems. I have experience the same issue in this car park in the past and either been able to pay by giving the money to an attendant and him issuing a hand written ticket, or not being able to pay at all and have never received a PCN in the past. I will, however, refrain from using this car park in the future.
    In view of circumstances being beyond my control, and the fact that I had fully intended to pay but could not, I do not agree with the charge and would like you to consider this my appeal.


    If anyone's around to read this and suggest any changes before I submit it I would be grateful but I need to do it asap as Excel are saying they want payment by this coming Friday (24th May).

    Thanks in advance

    I don't think this is going to succeed on its own. Appeals largely based on mitigating circumstances have spectacularly failed at POPLA; they are not interested in 'what happened'.

    You need to be able to challenge the PPC on every possible technical issue concerning their right to issue (fake) PCNs.

    Here is an excellent example of such a challenge and you'd be well advised to incorporate all appropriate points from this into your appeal. I'd challenge on all technical points before completing the appeal with the 'what happened' bits and pieces. I'd wager it would be unlikely that POPLA will even need to get to that bit of the appeal.

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=21565

    Have another go and let us have another look at it. I'm sure the forum can get you through this. HTH
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • lgb2909
    lgb2909 Posts: 9 Forumite
    I have to be honest - I'm completely confused with all the legal stuff and don't know which things apply to my case or not. I don't want to make the appeal and look an idiot quoting things which are not relevant! I've read many different posts and it's just getting me more confused!
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 152,019 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    edited 19 May 2013 at 4:53PM
    lgb2909 wrote: »
    I have to be honest - I'm completely confused with all the legal stuff and don't know which things apply to my case or not. I don't want to make the appeal and look an idiot quoting things which are not relevant! I've read many different posts and it's just getting me more confused!


    Oh come on it's not rocket science to copy & paste someone else's appeal - just show us a draft with more in it and at least have a look for the BPA quote recently posted by Guy's Dad, that's a simple action you can take for a start!

    We are not legally trained either but we don't give up the minute we see a complicated and long legal challenge statement. We just read it slowly and we soon 'get it'. So can you, stop being put off the minute you see something vaguely 'legally worded'.

    Honestly I have not seen a statement on a POPLA appeal that's difficult to understand - long/detailed yes, difficult to understand, NOPE.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
    Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • bargepole
    bargepole Posts: 3,237 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    lgb2909 wrote: »
    I have to be honest - I'm completely confused with all the legal stuff and don't know which things apply to my case or not. I don't want to make the appeal and look an idiot quoting things which are not relevant! I've read many different posts and it's just getting me more confused!
    Here you go, sorted:

    1. On the material date, the Appellant drove to the car park in question, and attempted to purchase a ticket for the duration of the stay. However, both of the ticket machines were out of order, and the Appellant was unable to purchase a ticket through no fault of his own.

    2. The Operator is a member of the British Parking Association, and the BPA Code of Practice states, in section 7.1, that the Operator must have written authority from the landowner to recover parking charges, including pursuing through court action. The Appellant puts the Operator to strict proof that they have the necessary authorisation at the location.

    3. The Operator states, in their letter of rejection, that the parking charge represents a contractual breach. Under established contract law, a party can only claim for their actual, or pre-estimated losses arising directly from a breach of contract. The Operator has not supplied any evidence or breakdown of such losses, which, the Appellant submits, would in reality be a vanishingly small sum, and nowhere near the amount demanded by the Operator.

    4. The Appellant refers the Adjudicator to the recent Appeal Court decision in the case of Vehicle Control Services (VCS) v HMRC ( EWCA Civ 186 [2013]): The principal issue in this case was to determine the actual nature of Private Parking Charges. It was stated that: "If those charges are consideration for a supply of goods or services, they will be subject to VAT. If, on the other hand, they are damages they will not be." The ruling of the Court was that "I would hold, therefore, that the monies that VCS collected from motorists by enforcement of parking charges were not consideration moving from the landowner in return for the supply of parking services." In other words, they are not, as the Operator asserts, a contractual term. If they were a contractual term, the Operator would have to provide a VAT invoice, to provide a means of payment at the point of supply, and to account to HMRC for the VAT element of the charge. The Appellant asserts that these requirements have not been met. It must therefore be concluded that the Operator's charges are in fact damages, or penalties, for which the Operator must demonstrate his actual, or pre-estimated, losses, as set out above.

    5. The Appellant further refers the Adjudicator to recent decisions made by POPLA, many of which are now in the public domain. These include statements such as “However, I must find as a fact that a term of the contract was that if the vehicle parked without complying with the conditions of the contract, the Appellant agreed to pay a parking charge of £85. The Operator is seeking to enforce the contract, by seeking payment of the charge which the Appellant accepted as a term of the contract by parking his vehicle …” and similar rulings. In light of the evidence of Paragraph 4 above, this interpretation can no longer be considered correct.

    6. The Appellant asserts that, for the reasons stated above, no “relevant obligation” has been created, and that the parking charge would not be recoverable by the Operator under common civil law. The Appellant therefore invites the Adjudicator to allow the appeal.

    I have been providing assistance, including Lay Representation at Court hearings (current score: won 57, lost 14), to defendants in parking cases for over 5 years. I have an LLB (Hons) degree, and have a Graduate Diploma in Civil Litigation from CILEx. However, any advice given on these forums by me is NOT formal legal advice, and I accept no liability for its accuracy.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 152,019 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    You have more patience than me bargepole. :)

    I still say the appellant should also quote the BPA on 'broken machines' from Guy's Dad's recent post.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
    Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • lgb2909
    lgb2909 Posts: 9 Forumite
    Thank you bargepole that is really helpful.

    Coupon-mad - I have now managed to find the broken machines post and I will include some of that too.

    I will post my amended appeal shortly to see if it sounds ok.
  • lgb2909
    lgb2909 Posts: 9 Forumite
    How about this?


    I received a PCN dated 03/04/2013 stating I had allegedly breached the car park terms and conditions and that the alleged contravention is ‘parked without displaying a valid ticket/permit’.
    At 12.32pm on Sunday 24 March 2013 I entered the Cavendish Retail Park Car Park. I attempted to obtain a parking ticket however both machines were out of order. I displayed a notice in my windscreen stating ‘TICKET MACHINES NOT WORKING’ and the date and time. I also spoke to other motorists who were experiencing the same issue and, on looking at other cars, I was not the only motorist not able to display a ticket.

    In view of circumstances being beyond my control, and the fact that I had fully intended to pay but could not, I do not agree with the charge and would like you to consider the following as my appeal.
    1. On the material date, the Appellant drove to the car park in question, and attempted to purchase a ticket for the duration of the stay. However, both of the ticket machines were out of order, and the Appellant was unable to purchase a ticket through no fault of his own. A recent response from the BPA enquiring about this was:
    Clearly “putting the customer at the heart of your thinking” would suggest that any parking systems and equipment deployed to control entry, exit and payment for parking should be in operation and motorists provided with the means to comply with any requirements for payment. To undertake enforcement action of any kind when this was not the case would be unfair. It is the adjudication services, both statutory and POPLA that would deal with this unfairness should it arise. Guidance of this kind is not something the BPA currently publishes since it is common sense to some extent and the appeals mechanism is in place.

    In practice when payment devices are malfunctioning or not available common sense prevails in most cases and especially when the motorist draws attention to the fact. Most parking operators, public and private sector have routines in place to regularly inspect and maintain equipment to ensure that it is functioning correctly and most equipment manufactured in recent years can be monitored remotely over the internet. It is also worth remembering that in most cases, when an enforcement agent enters say a pay and display car park, the first thing they do is to check the equipment before undertaking enforcement action. This is often evidenced by then physically purchasing a ticket to prove it functions correctly; this also provides the car park operator with times, proof that the enforcement agent was present in the car park. There are a number of other similar or related working practices.

    The Apellant displayed a notice in the windscreen stating ‘TICKET MACHINES NOT WORKING’ and the date and time, as covered in the above quote.
    2. The Operator is a member of the British Parking Association, and the BPA Code of Practice states, in section 7.1, that the Operator must have written authority from the landowner to recover parking charges, including pursuing through court action. The Appellant puts the Operator to strict proof that they have the necessary authorisation at the location.


    3. The Operator states, in their letter of rejection, that the parking charge represents a contractual breach. Under established contract law, a party can only claim for their actual, or pre-estimated losses arising directly from a breach of contract. The Operator has not supplied any evidence or breakdown of such losses, which, the Appellant submits, would in reality be a vanishingly small sum, and nowhere near the amount demanded by the Operator.
    4. The Appellant refers the Adjudicator to the recent Appeal Court decision in the case of Vehicle Control Services (VCS) v HMRC ( EWCA Civ 186 [2013]): The principal issue in this case was to determine the actual nature of Private Parking Charges. It was stated that: "If those charges are consideration for a supply of goods or services, they will be subject to VAT. If, on the other hand, they are damages they will not be." The ruling of the Court was that "I would hold, therefore, that the monies that VCS collected from motorists by enforcement of parking charges were not consideration moving from the landowner in return for the supply of parking services." In other words, they are not, as the Operator asserts, a contractual term. If they were a contractual term, the Operator would have to provide a VAT invoice, to provide a means of payment at the point of supply, and to account to HMRC for the VAT element of the charge. The Appellant asserts that these requirements have not been met. It must therefore be concluded that the Operator's charges are in fact damages, or penalties, for which the Operator must demonstrate his actual, or pre-estimated, losses, as set out above.


    5. The Appellant further refers the Adjudicator to recent decisions made by POPLA, many of which are now in the public domain. These include statements such as “However, I must find as a fact that a term of the contract was that if the vehicle parked without complying with the conditions of the contract, the Appellant agreed to pay a parking charge of £85. The Operator is seeking to enforce the contract, by seeking payment of the charge which the Appellant accepted as a term of the contract by parking his vehicle …” and similar rulings. In light of the evidence of Paragraph 4 above, this interpretation can no longer be considered correct.


    6. The Appellant asserts that, for the reasons stated above, no “relevant obligation” has been created, and that the parking charge would not be recoverable by the Operator under common civil law. The Appellant therefore invites the Adjudicator to allow the appeal.
  • bargepole
    bargepole Posts: 3,237 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    No.

    You are mixing first person and third person, and have gone off on an unnecessary ramble. You need to make it easy for the Adjudicator to read and follow.

    I've adjusted it for you, and would suggest, in the strongest possible terms, that you send it exactly as written below:

    1. On the material date, the Appellant drove to the car park in question, and attempted to purchase a ticket for the duration of the stay. However, both of the ticket machines were out of order, and the Appellant was unable to purchase a ticket through no fault of his own. A recent response from the BPA enquiring about this was: "Clearly 'putting the customer at the heart of your thinking' would suggest that any parking systems and equipment deployed to control entry, exit and payment for parking should be in operation and motorists provided with the means to comply with any requirements for payment. To undertake enforcement action of any kind when this was not the case would be unfair. It is the adjudication services, both statutory and POPLA that would deal with this unfairness should it arise."

    2. The Operator is a member of the British Parking Association, and the BPA Code of Practice states, in section 7.1, that the Operator must have written authority from the landowner to recover parking charges, including pursuing through court action. The Appellant puts the Operator to strict proof that they have the necessary authorisation at the location.

    3. The Operator states, in their letter of rejection, that the parking charge represents a contractual breach. Under established contract law, a party can only claim for their actual, or pre-estimated losses arising directly from a breach of contract. The Operator has not supplied any evidence or breakdown of such losses, which, the Appellant submits, would in reality be a vanishingly small sum, and nowhere near the amount demanded by the Operator.

    4. The Appellant refers the Adjudicator to the recent Appeal Court decision in the case of Vehicle Control Services (VCS) v HMRC ( EWCA Civ 186 [2013]): The principal issue in this case was to determine the actual nature of Private Parking Charges. It was stated that: "If those charges are consideration for a supply of goods or services, they will be subject to VAT. If, on the other hand, they are damages they will not be." The ruling of the Court was that "I would hold, therefore, that the monies that VCS collected from motorists by enforcement of parking charges were not consideration moving from the landowner in return for the supply of parking services." In other words, they are not, as the Operator asserts, a contractual term. If they were a contractual term, the Operator would have to provide a VAT invoice, to provide a means of payment at the point of supply, and to account to HMRC for the VAT element of the charge. The Appellant asserts that these requirements have not been met. It must therefore be concluded that the Operator's charges are in fact damages, or penalties, for which the Operator must demonstrate his actual, or pre-estimated, losses, as set out above.

    5. The Appellant further refers the Adjudicator to recent decisions made by POPLA, many of which are now in the public domain. These include statements such as “However, I must find as a fact that a term of the contract was that if the vehicle parked without complying with the conditions of the contract, the Appellant agreed to pay a parking charge of £85. The Operator is seeking to enforce the contract, by seeking payment of the charge which the Appellant accepted as a term of the contract by parking his vehicle …” and similar rulings. In light of the evidence of Paragraph 4 above, this interpretation can no longer be considered correct.

    6. The Appellant asserts that, for the reasons stated above, no “relevant obligation” has been created, and that the parking charge would not be recoverable by the Operator under common civil law. The Appellant therefore invites the Adjudicator to allow the appeal.

    I have been providing assistance, including Lay Representation at Court hearings (current score: won 57, lost 14), to defendants in parking cases for over 5 years. I have an LLB (Hons) degree, and have a Graduate Diploma in Civil Litigation from CILEx. However, any advice given on these forums by me is NOT formal legal advice, and I accept no liability for its accuracy.
  • lgb2909
    lgb2909 Posts: 9 Forumite
    Thank you that's very much appreciated. I apologise if I have appeared ignorant however I have obviously never done this before (and hope I never have to again!)
This discussion has been closed.
Meet your Ambassadors

🚀 Getting Started

Hi new member!

Our Getting Started Guide will help you get the most out of the Forum

Categories

  • All Categories
  • 351K Banking & Borrowing
  • 253.1K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
  • 453.6K Spending & Discounts
  • 244K Work, Benefits & Business
  • 599K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
  • 176.9K Life & Family
  • 257.4K Travel & Transport
  • 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
  • 16.1K Discuss & Feedback
  • 37.6K Read-Only Boards

Is this how you want to be seen?

We see you are using a default avatar. It takes only a few seconds to pick a picture.