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  • FIRST POST
    • Col07427
    • By Col07427 15th Sep 18, 10:55 AM
    • 3Posts
    • 0Thanks
    Col07427
    please help
    • #1
    • 15th Sep 18, 10:55 AM
    please help 15th Sep 18 at 10:55 AM
    Hi im total newby on here but i really could use some good advice.
    i was declared bankrupt in July this year.
    on Thursday i got a letter sent to my fathers house from bristow & suttor for a non domestic rates bill.
    i politely emailed them and informed them of my bankruptcy and the fact that i have been unemployed for 18 month.also i have not lived at my farther house for well over 25 years and the fact that he is 82 and blind makes him a vulnerable person. this is the email i received back.





    Our Reference: TMB-N/1894

    Case ID: 1231-4912380

    Client Reference:



    14 September 2018



    Dear Mr



    BANKRUPTCY DOES NOT STOP OUR ACTION



    Re: Non Domestic Rates owed to Tameside Metropolitan Borough Council.



    We understand that you have been made bankrupt and you may believe this stops enforcement action but this is not true. You should refer this email to your trustee. Refer them to sections 9.102a, 9.103 and 9.109 of the Insolvency Service’s technical manual.



    Under the terms of the Insolvency Act 1986 347(8) and (9), we are still able to enforce this debt by taking control of goods after the making of a Bankruptcy Order.



    Although you cannot pay the balance of £732.62 yourself, we can accept payment from a third party, provided it will not otherwise have formed part of the bankrupt’s estate. In view of this please contact us by 21/09/17 to arrange payment of this debt, to prevent the removal and sale of your goods at public auction.







    We trust this clarifies the matter.



    Yours Sincerely



    Bristow & Sutor

    0871 677 0070

    (JRKW

    i've email the official receiver but as yet i've had no response.
    myself and the O R went though everything but i don't remember if it was included in the bankruptcy.
    are bristow & suttor attempting to bully me or do they have a legal right to enforce this debt?
    in their letter they are suggesting i go into debt with a third party surly this would be a voilation of the terms of my bankruptcy ?
    i would appreciate any help i can get on this.
    i am currntly of no fixed abode, and i dont want to worry my father on this as i sad he 82 and blind.
    thank you in advance
    col
Page 1
    • fatbelly
    • By fatbelly 15th Sep 18, 11:36 AM
    • 12,699 Posts
    • 9,761 Thanks
    fatbelly
    • #2
    • 15th Sep 18, 11:36 AM
    • #2
    • 15th Sep 18, 11:36 AM
    I post the sections below that they are relying on.

    The key is the 'your goods' in their letter. Are 'your goods' actually at your 82 year old blind father's house that you haven't lived at for 25 years?

    if not I would complain to the council about them bullying a vulnerable adult


    9.102a Continuing use of the term ‘distress’ in the insolvency legislation

    Whilst the term ‘distress’ has been updated following the implementation of legislation in April 2014 and is now known as ‘taking control of goods’ (see paragraph 9.9), the term distress continues to be used in the insolvency legislation [note 1] [note 2] [note 3]. The legislation [note 4] provides that distress, for the purpose of the insolvency legislation is defined as including ‘use of the [taking control of goods process] and references to levying distress, seizing goods and related expressions shall be construed accordingly’.



    9.103 Power of creditor to take control of goods other than in execution of a judgment

    An enforcement agent acting on behalf of a landlord (see paragraph 9.10) may take control of goods under a CRAR in certain circumstances (see paragraph 9.22).

    The HMRC have a general power to take control of goods (see paragraphs 9.81 to 9.82) and the Child Support Agency and local authorities may also do so, appointing a private bailiff as enforcement agent, after obtaining a liability order (see paragraphs 9.25 to 9.26).

    Such creditors will be known as ‘qualifying creditors’ for the purposes of this Part.



    9.103a Ability of a qualifying creditor to take control of goods in insolvency

    In a company case, a creditor has effectively no ability to take control of goods after the presentation of the winding-up petition (see paragraph 9.106).

    In bankruptcy, subject to the restrictions outlined in paragraphs 9.107 to 9.109, the enforcement agent on behalf of qualifying creditor (see paragraph 9.103) may take control of goods at any time (even after the making of the order), but not after discharge in respect of a debt incurred before the date of the bankruptcy [note 5] [note 6] and, in the case of a landlord, only for rent due for the six-months (see paragraph 9.104) prior to the beginning of the bankruptcy [note 7].



    9.109 Goods taken control of after bankruptcy order

    An enforcement agent acting on behalf of a qualifying creditor (see paragraph 9.103) may take control of goods (subject to the restrictions outlined in paragraphs 9.104 and 9.107 to 9.108) at any time and even against property comprised in the bankrupt’s estate and property vested in the trustee. The only exceptions to this are where an application for an interim order in relation to an IVA is pending (see Chapter 20, Part 5), in which case permission of the court is required (see paragraph 20.26) [note 21] [note 22] [note 23] [note 24].
    • Col07427
    • By Col07427 18th Sep 18, 10:34 AM
    • 3 Posts
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    Col07427
    • #3
    • 18th Sep 18, 10:34 AM
    please help
    • #3
    • 18th Sep 18, 10:34 AM
    Thank You Fatbelly
    The Official receiver has emailed me today.
    not good news.
    He says that as there is a liability order in relation to this debt it is not provable in bankruptcy.
    which means i will have to pay it.
    i have no possessions what soever at my fathers home. when i was made bankrupt i lost everything.
    i literally have the clothes on my back.
    im on universal credit so if i could get a payment plan i doubt they would agree to anything i could afford.
    the O R sugested sending them a copy of the report to creditors as this expains my asset postion.
    regards
    colin
    • ToxtethO'Grady
    • By ToxtethO'Grady 18th Sep 18, 5:03 PM
    • 129 Posts
    • 70 Thanks
    ToxtethO'Grady
    • #4
    • 18th Sep 18, 5:03 PM
    • #4
    • 18th Sep 18, 5:03 PM
    You can find a solicitors and sign a statutory declaration that you have no goods at your fathers, usually the cost for this is around £5. Look for a local law centre or pro bon solicitor and you may get some advice for free.
    • fatbelly
    • By fatbelly 18th Sep 18, 6:38 PM
    • 12,699 Posts
    • 9,761 Thanks
    fatbelly
    • #5
    • 18th Sep 18, 6:38 PM
    • #5
    • 18th Sep 18, 6:38 PM
    He says that as there is a liability order in relation to this debt it is not provable in bankruptcy.
    which means i will have to pay it.
    Originally posted by Col07427
    Are you sure that is what the email says? Most council tax debts have a liability order on them and get cleared by bankruptcy.
    • Col07427
    • By Col07427 18th Sep 18, 8:40 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Col07427
    • #6
    • 18th Sep 18, 8:40 PM
    • #6
    • 18th Sep 18, 8:40 PM
    Yes thats what the official receiver said. this is his wording,
    Unfortunately as there is a liability order in relation to this debt, it is not “proveable” in bankruptcy. Which means you will still have to pay it.
    i then asked him what is defined as provable? he responded with this.

    “Provable” is a technical term relating to what debts can and cannot be included in bankruptcy. If a debt is provable then it’s included in the bankruptcy and you no longer have to pay. If a debt is not provable, such as court fines, confiscation orders, then you are still liable for it.
    i still dont quite get it. if a debt is a debt it must have been proven,
    i really am at my whits end. i spoken to bristow today and to make a payment plan i have to pay £67 per month yet my universal credit is £317.82 per month.
    • fatbelly
    • By fatbelly 18th Sep 18, 8:53 PM
    • 12,699 Posts
    • 9,761 Thanks
    fatbelly
    • #7
    • 18th Sep 18, 8:53 PM
    • #7
    • 18th Sep 18, 8:53 PM
    I understand the concept of a non-provable debt

    Are there any types of debts that would not be included in an insolvency?

    There are. These are known as non-provable debts. Chapter 40 (Part 3) gives full details of those types of debts that are non-provable, but the main ones are:
    •Fines (see paragraph 40.84)
    •Student loan debts (see paragraph 40.92)
    •Arrears of a debt due in family proceedings (see paragraphs 40.85 to 40.88)
    •Confiscation orders (see paragraph 40.90)
    but I'm struggling to see that this applies to non-domestic rates.

    Seems to fly in the face of

    40.55 Non-domestic rates (business rates) – collection and recovery

    The amount estimated as due for non-domestic rates (see paragraph 40.54) will be billed for the start of the financial year [note 54] [note 55].

    The local authority will allow the payment to be made in instalments, on a monthly basis [note 56].

    40.56 Non-domestic rates – provable debts

    All outstanding liabilities (that is, all arrears and future instalment payments) for non-domestic rates for the year in which the insolvency commences are provable debts [note 57] [note 58].

    This applies whether or not the company/bankrupt was in arrears at the date of insolvency.
    • Ian011
    • By Ian011 21st Sep 18, 10:53 PM
    • 2,115 Posts
    • 1,250 Thanks
    Ian011
    • #8
    • 21st Sep 18, 10:53 PM
    • #8
    • 21st Sep 18, 10:53 PM
    If you have to call them at any time, do not call the premium rate 0871 number. This costs up to 71p per minute and earns them up to 13p per minute. Usage of such a number for this purpose is a disgrace. Source an alternative 01, 02 or 03 number from elsewhere.
    Last edited by Ian011; 21-09-2018 at 11:08 PM.
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