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  • FIRST POST
    • AandP
    • By AandP 6th Jul 18, 8:11 AM
    • 17Posts
    • 12Thanks
    AandP
    HMRC say no tax relief on pension contribution as I'm a 20% tax payer
    • #1
    • 6th Jul 18, 8:11 AM
    HMRC say no tax relief on pension contribution as I'm a 20% tax payer 6th Jul 18 at 8:11 AM
    Hi I thought I'd start a new post from my previous one as the subject has now moved on.
    Just before the end of the last tax year I deposited 14,000 ( this amount to take me close to 100% of my allowance) from a savings account into my works DC pension. The pension provider is BlackRock and they said they would not be able to claim tax relief on my behalf as it hasn't gone through the normal payroll which my normal monthly pension contributions do and which they normally add tax relief at source. They said to contact HMRC to claim tax relief on the 14,000. After several months now and lots of phone calls and evidence provided, the latest letter from HMRC states " I have updated record to include the single amount you have contributed of 14,000 to your private pension, unfortunately there is no tax refund, or relief on that amount as you are only a 20% taxpayer and you are only able to claim tax relief on a pension contribution if you are a 40% tax payer."
    I contacted the pension advisory service and explained the situation and they said that I should be entitled to the tax relief so yet another long phone call to HMRC and explained that the amount has not had tax relief applied at source, and that I'm not trying to get extra tax relief as if I was a 40% tax payer. The PAS say I am entitled to tax relief, BlackRock say I'm entitled etc etc but HMRC refuse to accept that a 20% tax payer is allowed tax relief on pension contributions. To try and prove my point I told them that I am getting tax relief at source on my normal monthly contributions even though I am a 20% tax payer but both the first line support ( who by the way was incredibly rude) and then his manager flatly refused to accept that this was possible and just said your application for tax relief has been refused because I am a 20% tax payer.

    I have contacted the PAS once again but yet to have a reply.

    I'm beginning to doubt my own sanity at this point. Am I unlucky that my application has gone to the wrong people or am I just wrong along with the PAS and BlackRock?

    Any Ideas where I go from here?
Page 1
    • BoGoF
    • By BoGoF 6th Jul 18, 8:19 AM
    • 3,628 Posts
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    BoGoF
    • #2
    • 6th Jul 18, 8:19 AM
    • #2
    • 6th Jul 18, 8:19 AM
    Maybe the easiest way to get tax relief would be to complete a Tax Return and enter the 14,000 in the appropriate section.

    It is not an everyday occurence and the people on the phone lines do not have the knowledge that not all pension payments get tax relief at source.
    • Dazed and confused
    • By Dazed and confused 6th Jul 18, 8:21 AM
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    Dazed and confused
    • #3
    • 6th Jul 18, 8:21 AM
    • #3
    • 6th Jul 18, 8:21 AM
    I would suggest you ask to be referred to someone more senior.

    HMRC own guidance covers this subject and there have been several other threads about this on MSE forums.

    The common theme is that it is difficult to get HMRC to allow the tax relief, simply because what you have done is outside the "normal" methods of contributing to a pension i.e. relief given automatically via payroll (monthly salary say 2000 less 5% pension = 1900 taxable salary) or personal pension/SIPP contribution where the pension company adds basic rate relief.

    Having read your other thread it seems you have paid a gross contribution of 14,000 and are entitled to tax relief of 2,800. This is on the assumption the original P800 calculation you received was correct in all other regards.

    The HMRC internal guidance below seems to mirror your situation (from superannuation relief bit onwards). The only difference being that, based on your other thread, you didn't try and claim any tax relief during the year you made the payment so there was no provisional adjustment to your tax code.

    https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/paye-manual/paye93090

    You need to get HMRC to remove the pension relief already included (your original thread refers) and replace it with the correct relief i.e. no basic rate relief added at source so 14,000 gross not 17,500 gross with relief at source as you are currently being credited with (on your P800).
    • AandP
    • By AandP 6th Jul 18, 8:39 AM
    • 17 Posts
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    AandP
    • #4
    • 6th Jul 18, 8:39 AM
    • #4
    • 6th Jul 18, 8:39 AM
    I would suggest you ask to be referred to someone more senior.
    I tried that and the reply was "I know what I'm talking about, it's my job!" And even when I got to talk to his manager he just backed up first line.


    Having read your other thread it seems you have paid a gross contribution of 14,000 and are entitled to tax relief of 2,800. This is on the assumption the original P800 calculation you received was correct in all other regards.
    I did mention this but the answer was the addition to the 14,000 on the P800 could just be your normal monthly contributions not added tax relief.

    Thanks , ill have a look at that URL


    You need to get HMRC to remove the pension relief already included (your original thread refers) and replace it with the correct relief i.e. no basic rate relief added at source so 14,000 gross not 17,500 gross with relief at source as you are currently being credited with (on your P800).
    Originally posted by Dazed and confused
    They wouldn't admit that the 17500 could be my 14000 plus relief
    The main problem is that my phone calls and letters get dealt with by people who seem not to know my situation and don't even read the previous case notes and as now the latest letter says I'm not entitled that's all they read.

    Idealy I need a contact or an address of some one in HMRC who does know how to deal with this situation.
    • BoGoF
    • By BoGoF 6th Jul 18, 8:54 AM
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    BoGoF
    • #5
    • 6th Jul 18, 8:54 AM
    • #5
    • 6th Jul 18, 8:54 AM
    Or......you cut out the middle man and proceed as I suggested.

    Your only other option is to formally complain. The time that is looked into you could have your return completed and tax refund in your bank account.
    Last edited by BoGoF; 06-07-2018 at 8:57 AM.
    • Dazed and confused
    • By Dazed and confused 6th Jul 18, 8:55 AM
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    Dazed and confused
    • #6
    • 6th Jul 18, 8:55 AM
    • #6
    • 6th Jul 18, 8:55 AM
    You could try PM'ing an MSE user called Dori2o, he or she works for HMRC and posts regularly on the Cutting Tax board (but never on this board from memory).

    They may be able to give you a pointer as to what to ask/say which will get through to HMRC?

    They wouldn't admit that the 17500 could be my 14000 plus relief


    This makes no sense whatsoever, surely the only way that could possibly have been included on the P800 you received was if HMRC had included it based on the correspondence you had sent to them!! Do they not release 14,000 (which you say you informed them of) grossed up for basic rate tax relief equals 17,500
    • Dazed and confused
    • By Dazed and confused 6th Jul 18, 8:57 AM
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    Dazed and confused
    • #7
    • 6th Jul 18, 8:57 AM
    • #7
    • 6th Jul 18, 8:57 AM
    If you do go with BoGoF's suggestion don't forget to declare the tax refund you received via the P800 on the Self Assessment return.
    • AandP
    • By AandP 6th Jul 18, 9:11 AM
    • 17 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    AandP
    • #8
    • 6th Jul 18, 9:11 AM
    • #8
    • 6th Jul 18, 9:11 AM
    Thanks for the suggestion but as I've never filled in a tax return before it's a bit daunting and I fear if I get any of it wrong it could open up a whole new can of worms. To be honest I'm loosing faith in the tax office all together.
    • AandP
    • By AandP 6th Jul 18, 9:13 AM
    • 17 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    AandP
    • #9
    • 6th Jul 18, 9:13 AM
    • #9
    • 6th Jul 18, 9:13 AM

    They wouldn't admit that the 17500 could be my 14000 plus relief


    This makes no sense whatsoever, surely the only way that could possibly have been included on the P800 you received was if HMRC had included it based on the correspondence you had sent to them!! Do they not release 14,000 (which you say you informed them of) grossed up for basic rate tax relief equals 17,500
    Originally posted by Dazed and confused
    When they don't belive that anyone who is a basic rate tax payer gets tax relief at all what chance do I stand.
    • Dazed and confused
    • By Dazed and confused 6th Jul 18, 11:13 AM
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    Dazed and confused
    Well to be fair for a personal pension or SIPP contribution, which based on what you have posted about the P800 you received is what HMRC have treated your payment as, no one who is a basic rate taxpayer would get any additional tax relief over and above the amount automatically added to the fund by the pension company.

    The issue is that you didn't make a payment of this type and you need to get HMRC to understand this so they can correct matters.

    A Self Assessment return would probably take you about 5 minutes to complete. Based on your posts you would enter your P60 details, the pension contribution, your Marriage Allowance and the tax refund you have already received.

    But as far as I'm aware there really is no need to complete a Self Assessment return in this situation.
    • MEM62
    • By MEM62 6th Jul 18, 11:38 AM
    • 1,809 Posts
    • 1,420 Thanks
    MEM62
    Thanks for the suggestion but as I've never filled in a tax return before it's a bit daunting and I fear if I get any of it wrong it could open up a whole new can of worms. To be honest I'm loosing faith in the tax office all together.
    Originally posted by AandP
    That's hardly the case. They are straightforward enough.

    I do mine every year as I earn income from a rental property and even with all that goes with that its a simple process. Yours will be no problem - in fact probably easier than all the phone calls you have had to make.

    When they don't belive that anyone who is a basic rate tax payer gets tax relief at all what chance do I stand.
    Originally posted by AandP
    It's not a case of what they believe or otherwise - the regulations are the regulations. I think there is a misunderstanding and the operator you are speaking to is not grasping that you have not had the tax relief applied by the pension company- which is the usual way. Some operators are not the sharpest tools.

    You have been advised on the easiest way out, complete a tax return. You can take that advice or keep frustrating yourself by struggling to resolve the issue by other means.

    Hope you manage to get it worked out.
    Last edited by MEM62; 06-07-2018 at 11:44 AM.
    • Kynthia
    • By Kynthia 6th Jul 18, 1:03 PM
    • 5,349 Posts
    • 7,454 Thanks
    Kynthia
    I wouldn't do a tax return but would write it in a letter referencing their own policy. If that doesbt work I'd write a letter of complaint. Someone who understands should become involved.
    Don't listen to me, I'm no expert!
    • AandP
    • By AandP 6th Jul 18, 1:17 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    AandP
    Many thanks to all, I will try one last time, quoting their own policy etc and reiterating that my pension company has not added any tax relief even thought this has been all said before. If no luck I will try it in a tax return but not sure how that will come out as in the P800 it already looks like they have concluded that I have already received tax relief.
    • Terry Towelling
    • By Terry Towelling 6th Jul 18, 5:06 PM
    • 704 Posts
    • 563 Thanks
    Terry Towelling
    Go straight to the Complaints section with a letter. The first line of the address on the envelope should be 'Complaints'. You should also ask for the cost of your telephone calls to be reimbursed. I did this for 5.41 of calls that I shouldn't have had to make and got a cheque for 40. Ironically, BT then mucked up my phone bill and charged me nothing for the phone calls - but that's another story.

    You will get it sorted.
    • BoGoF
    • By BoGoF 6th Jul 18, 6:09 PM
    • 3,628 Posts
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    BoGoF
    Many thanks to all, I will try one last time, quoting their own policy etc and reiterating that my pension company has not added any tax relief even thought this has been all said before. If no luck I will try it in a tax return but not sure how that will come out as in the P800 it already looks like they have concluded that I have already received tax relief.
    Originally posted by AandP
    There is a specific box on the tax return for such payments.....but if you want to do it the long way then a complaints letter is the way to go.
    • Lorian
    • By Lorian 6th Jul 18, 7:34 PM
    • 4,572 Posts
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    Lorian
    There is a specific box on the tax return for such payments.....but if you want to do it the long way then a complaints letter is the way to go.
    Originally posted by BoGoF

    I agree with you. three boxes for pensions contributions and one is the right one for the OP. I always fill in a tax return for this exact reason. It's all done online, not difficult.
    • westv
    • By westv 6th Jul 18, 8:06 PM
    • 4,643 Posts
    • 2,238 Thanks
    westv
    But if you don't complain how will their error in the information they have given out be corrected?
    • Dazed and confused
    • By Dazed and confused 6th Jul 18, 8:28 PM
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    Dazed and confused
    From the op's perspective it wouldn't need to be corrected.

    The self assessment return would result in a repayment and then instead of the onus being on the op to prove he is due the relief the onus would be on HMRC to challenge the return if they believed it to be wrong.
    • TrickyDicky101
    • By TrickyDicky101 7th Jul 18, 10:26 AM
    • 3,192 Posts
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    TrickyDicky101
    From the op's perspective it wouldn't need to be corrected.

    The self assessment return would result in a repayment and then instead of the onus being on the op to prove he is due the relief the onus would be on HMRC to challenge the return if they believed it to be wrong.
    Originally posted by Dazed and confused
    But without highlighting the erroneous statements from the HMRC 'helpline' then there will be a lost opportunity for HMRC to improve their training/knowledge of the telephone staff. Of course, the complaint may not lead to improvements, but that isn't a reason not to make the complaint me thinks!
    • bluenose1
    • By bluenose1 7th Jul 18, 11:59 AM
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    bluenose1
    I know someone who works in tax office and majority of staff on phones are new, have had very limited training and just follow a script. A lot of the experienced staff have left and many managers are brought in without a tax background from other civil service departments.
    If there was going to be anyone with any tax knowledge I would expect it would be on the complaints team. Make sure it is clear it is an official complaint.
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