Fixed Penalty Notice

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Hi I have recently been served with a fixed penalty notice for 'littering'. To be exact I threw a cigarette butt down an open drain as I was running to get into a taxi at a taxi stand in Newcastle upon Tyne. It turns out the city council have hit on a great new scam, which involves targeting taxi ranks and busy bus stops and where these are available using CCTV cameras to watch their citizens every move. If anyone even remotely steps out of line, they pounce on them and demand money from them. They are particularly targeting smokers, as although it isn't (yet) illegal to smoke in public, the council know only too well that smokers will often light up while waiting to catch a bus or a taxi to whatever destination they may want to go to, and that they therefore represent an easy and highly reliable income stream for the city coffers.

In my own case, I was smoking in a zone that did not display any no smoking signs (I have since been back and have checked). It was just as I was about to take off in my taxi that these two huge guys banged on my window and asked me to step out. Since they both looked like plain clothed cops I complied. It was then that they said I had been spotted 'littering' and that they wanted to speak to me. I specifically asked them who they were, and was simply told to 'shut up!' and that it was them who were doing the taking now. I tried to explain that I was in a rush to get to an interview, but was again told to 'shut up and that if I didn't shut up, that they would put me under caution'. I was not allowed to speak, ask who they were, or question their authority for what they were doing. They behaved like complete cowboys, assuming total authority to say and do whatever they wanted. They were openly physically intimidating and verbally aggressive and used the threat that if I didn't accept the notice they would take me to court, knowing full well that the majority of ordinary decent people (my self included) have never seen the inside of a court in their lives and that they would find this prospect utterly terrifying.

The council therefore are running the perfect scam. They are targeting smokers, because they know they make easy pickings, they are using large physically and verbally intimidating men, who make themselves even more intimidating by refusing to identify themselves. They use 'threats' to take people to court, even though the vast majority of ordinary law abiding citizens would find this prospect utterly terrifying - and would clearly (if they can afford to) rather pay to avoid this happening.

So my question is, where these guys right to withhold ID? I asked the council about it, and of course the guys in question who gave me the notice simply denied that they had offered no ID and in any case the council just said that the fixed penalty notice on it's own should have been sufficient proof of ID - even though I didn't get this for some 10 minutes until the process was complete.

Also if I must pay, does anyone have any useful suggestions on ways I can pay that will make this exercise unprofitable for the council? I considered paying the full £75 in loose pennies, but some councils have began refusing to accept this as a payment method, since pennies are only legal tender up to a maximum of 20p.

Here is the definition of legal tender here: http://www.royalmint.com/aboutus/policies-and-guidelines/legal-tender-guidelines

I could still do a mix of coins up to the value of £75 that matches this exact definition, which would still take a little while to count. Also another method (which I very much like), was covering all the coins in jam or marmalade, and putting it in a zip bag and sending it to the council in a zipped clear plastic wallet, with a letter explaining that I am so broke (which is true) that I had no option than to use money I had been saving in jam jars for a while to pay the penalty and that unfortunately it seemed I had forgotten to empty all the jam out of the jar first.

Legally speaking they have no grounds to refuse this method of payment, since the money I send will match the legal definition of legal tender exactly. The only way they could refuse it would be if they had reasonable suspicion that the money was covered in a noxious substance (which marmalade/jam isn't), or if any of the money had been physically defaced. (Which it won't be.) What this means is that they may have to wash each coin individually by hand before counting it. (Preferably with a toothbrush!)

Another method I thought of was paying in 75 x £1 cheques, as as far as I understand it, these can take much more time and effort to process. But as technically I am not allowed to pay in instalments (even though all the cheques would have the same date on them) I'm not all that sure about this one.

In any case I would welcome any help and any suggestions anyone might have. How do citizens fight back under these conditions, or are we expected to just bend over and take it up the bum?
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  • holyroller
    holyroller Posts: 19 Forumite
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    Do you get a discount if you pay it early?
  • jebus197
    jebus197 Posts: 101 Forumite
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    No, it takes no account of your ability to pay, even though I'm a mature unemployed disabled student and live on a budget of less than £37 a week after my bills are paid.
  • jebus197
    jebus197 Posts: 101 Forumite
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    Which is another point really, since clearly fines like these end up punishing the poor the most, as clearly those who can pay will pay - and those who can't, may be taken to court and may obtain a criminal record as a result of this.
  • pimento
    pimento Posts: 6,242 Forumite
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    jebus197 wrote: »
    No, it takes no account of your ability to pay, even though I'm a mature unemployed disabled student and live on a budget of less than £37 a week after my bills are paid.

    I'm in the wrong job if you can afford cheroots and taxis.
    "If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." -- Red Adair
  • dave030445
    dave030445 Posts: 1,001 Forumite
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    just pay up and next time keep your dirty filthy habit to yourself and stop littering our street/drains.
  • sagalout1954
    sagalout1954 Posts: 418 Forumite
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    Next time I eat a sweet in the street (where there aren't any 'no eating' signs), perhaps I'll fling the wrapper either on the floor or down the nearest drain, presumably that will be perfectly OK with you.

    Glad to see some Local Authorities have decided the dirty habit of chucking litter (yes, your fag ends) on the floor has to be stopped.

    Do you think your attitude to how awkward can you possibly get away with when paying the fine, might give an indication of how you reacted during your encounter with the council 'villains' - not sure they were the only ones behaving like immature teenage yobs.
  • soolin
    soolin Posts: 72,206 Ambassador
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    Next time I eat a sweet in the street (where there aren't any 'no eating' signs), perhaps I'll fling the wrapper either on the floor or down the nearest drain, presumably that will be perfectly OK with you.

    Glad to see some Local Authorities have decided the dirty habit of chucking litter (yes, your fag ends) on the floor has to be stopped.

    Do you think your attitude to how awkward can you possibly get away with when paying the fine, might give an indication of how you reacted during your encounter with the council 'villains' - not sure they were the only ones behaving like immature teenage yobs.

    I also had to re read the original post to see the relevance of there not being any 'no smoking ' signs. OP, did you drop your cigarette end, if so they had you bang to rights so just pay up and remember to take your litter home with you in future.

    As for using 'heavies' I suspect they are the only people brave enough to tackle a smoker who seems to think it is their right to litter the place. I have on occasions asked someone not to drop a cigarette butt and the abuse you get back is astounding
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  • mynameistallulah
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    jebus197 wrote: »
    No, it takes no account of your ability to pay, even though I'm a mature unemployed disabled student and live on a budget of less than £37 a week after my bills are paid.

    Yet just a few months ago you had £2,000 to spend on a holiday? :p
    jebus197 wrote: »
    Hi I am looking for an adventurous holiday involving wildlife spotting of some kind. I am mainly interested in mammals, so not so much birds or anything really small. I would love to go to India, but all the tours I've found so far have been really expensive. I have a budget of about £2K for the whole holiday, including flights and spending money.
  • McKneff
    McKneff Posts: 38,823 Forumite
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    I'm a smoker, I can honestly say since the smoking ban came in I have never thrown a ciggie but down on the ground. I carry it round with me to the nearest bin. I cant see a problem with doing that. It takes seconds. I hate seeing butts on the ground.

    I can never understand why Leeds bus station is absolutely littered outside with hundreds and hundreds of cig ends and the transport idiots just will not put bins of any description outside.
    Over the other side of the road is a massive police station, they could make a mint if they monitored the litter louts from one of the windows.
    make the most of it, we are only here for the weekend.
    and we will never, ever return.
  • mynameistallulah
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    McKneff wrote: »
    I can never understand why Leeds bus station is absolutely littered outside with hundreds and hundreds of cig ends and the transport idiots just will not put bins of any description outside.

    The number of bins in public places was significantly reduced after the Warrington bombings :(
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