Gross misconduct, my word against theirs

JohnJones80 · 5 January 2019 at 11:51AM

Hello all. I am returning to these forums after previously asking for help and having some great advice from you people.

Next week I will be sacked from my job for Gross misconduct. I have two accusations levelled against me;

1 - That I have bullied another member of staff
2 - That same member of staff has claimed I have been incompetent.

At the moment there is only his word for this, which is why I am seeking assistance..

1 - He claims I have bullied him, by attacking him verbally, telling him he is useless and he should leave the company because he isn't good enough. As well as this I had a previous issue with this person, as I was overheard (which I admitted) saying derogatory things about him, however, and I believe this is important, at the time he was NOT working for the company.

So the person in question is friends with my boss, which is why I know I know I'm sacked. He worked at the company for two years and left for another job. He was gone for 6 months, during this time I was overheard saying that I was glad this person was gone because he was useless and an idiot. When he returned to the company, my boss pulled me into the office and informed me he would be returning, and asked me about the circumstance from several months prior in which I said which I said and I admitted it to him. My boss was pretty emotional about it as they're pretty close, and my relationship with my boss has deteriorated massively over the last year or so for various reasons.

For the recent accusations, he has no evidence. I do often get frustrated by his inability & do not believe he belongs in this position, and I have made him aware that he really needs to up his game because it has a knock on affect to my work, but in no way have I ever 'bullied' him. I have said things like 'Mate you're really letting me down here, you need to buckle down and crack on because it's having a major affect on me'

2 - So, this same person claims to have witnessed me missing out key aspects of my work (testing electrical products). This was one day a few weeks ago, when him and others from his department were working in our department (this very rarely happens), he said he witnessed me missing out a number of things stated in procedure. There were 2 other people present at the time, none of them have come forward to make that same claim.

My question is this. My boss said that right now it is my word against is, and he does not intend to get anyone involved unless I specifically name people there. If I name witnesses, they will be interviewed.

The issue is the other two people, I do not know them well, they're in this other person's department, they're aware of my boss friendship with this person, I am afraid that they may back his story up, then it will be 3 v 1 instead of 1 v 1.

If I am sacked on my word vs his I believe I will have a good chance at tribunal. However, this could either swing 3 v 1 my side, or the other side, can someone please advise on what they think I should do?

Thank you!

EDIT: Just to make clear, those two other people are only possible witnesses to my incompetence, not the 'bullying'. There are no witnesses for that (because it's not true).

TELLIT01 · 5 January 2019 at 12:28PM

Slightly confused that you would say there are no witnesses to the bullying because that isn't true, but don't say the same regarding the incompetence. Are you saying you didn't do the safety checks properly?

JohnJones80 · 5 January 2019 at 12:32PM

I'm not saying that. I believe I did them properly. I believe I always do them properly.

I do not mean there were three witnesses to me being incompetent, but there were three witnesses to my alleged incompetence.

Undervalued · 5 January 2019 at 1:05PM

JohnJones80 wrote: »

If I am sacked on my word vs his I believe I will have a good chance at tribunal. However, this could either swing 3 v 1 my side, or the other side, can someone please advise on what they think I should do?

Based on what you have said here, I am afraid I don't share your optimism.

To dismiss fairly in law and employer only needs a reasonable belief that the misconduct has taken place. This is not remotely like "proved beyond a reasonable doubt" as would be required by a criminal court.

A tribunal does not rehear the case and substitute its decision for the employer's. It only considers certain aspects, such as whether it was reasonable for the employer to have come to their decision and whether they conducted a reasonably fair process.

You frequently refer to "only his word". In many circumstances that may be sufficient.If that employee is experienced, has a good record etc it may be perfectly reasonable for the employer to take his work over yours. It does not automatically need to be 2 to 1.

TBagpuss · 5 January 2019 at 1:19PM

Why would you not name the other people who were there, if they can confirm that you were acting correctly?
I think that if you fail to mention them now, it will be more difficult for you to try to involve them at a later stage.

So far as the bullying allegations are concerned, it sounds as though it is matter of interpretation and intent, your best bet may be to say that you have not bullied this person or intended to do so but that you have raised concerns with him about poor quality work which impacted on your ability to do your own job, and give a couple of examples. Present it as you having tried to resolve it with him direct rather than making a formal complaint about him .
Had you raised with your own manager your concerns or the effect his actions were having on you and your work, before this disciplinary started?

JohnJones80 · 5 January 2019 at 1:47PM

Thanks for your input. I suppose the reason I feel more confident than yourself is that a similar case happened a few months ago, where an employee was accused of lying by two members of management and subsequently sacked. He was taking it to tribunal, instead they decide to make a deal for 20 weeks wages. I am going to contact him later for more details about that and any similarities.

JohnJones80 · 5 January 2019 at 1:48PM

Yes well this is was one of the things I was considering. However, if they back him & management up, it just looks worse and worse.

Undervalued · 5 January 2019 at 1:54PM

JohnJones80 wrote: »

Thanks for your input. I suppose the reason I feel more confident than yourself is that a similar case happened a few months ago, where an employee was accused of lying by two members of management and subsequently sacked. He was taking it to tribunal, instead they decide to make a deal for 20 weeks wages. I am going to contact him later for more details about that and any similarities.

The fact that another "similar case" was settled tells you little about whether they would have won at a tribunal. Cases can be settled for all sorts of reasons. Defending an ET claim can be expensive, disruptive or the employer may have worried about adverse publicity. In all but the most exceptional cases an employer won't be able to recover costs even if they win.

The other employee (and you come to that) may have had an excellent case - or may not!

Have you received any one to one legal advice (not ACAS's call centre!) about the merits of your case?

TadleyBaggie · 5 January 2019 at 5:55PM

If the other case was settled out of court they almost certainly would have agreed to sign a NDA, so in reality you are unlikely to get any information from them.

motorguy · 5 January 2019 at 6:06PM

JohnJones80 wrote: »

Hello all. I am returning to these forums after previously asking for help and having some great advice from you people.

Next week I will be sacked from my job for Gross misconduct. I have two accusations levelled against me;

1 - That I have bullied another member of staff
2 - That same member of staff has claimed I have been incompetent.

At the moment there is only his word for this, which is why I am seeking assistance..

1 - He claims I have bullied him, by attacking him verbally, telling him he is useless and he should leave the company because he isn't good enough. As well as this I had a previous issue with this person, as I was overheard (which I admitted) saying derogatory things about him, however, and I believe this is important, at the time he was NOT working for the company.

So the person in question is friends with my boss, which is why I know I know I'm sacked. He worked at the company for two years and left for another job. He was gone for 6 months, during this time I was overheard saying that I was glad this person was gone because he was useless and an idiot. When he returned to the company, my boss pulled me into the office and informed me he would be returning, and asked me about the circumstance from several months prior in which I said which I said and I admitted it to him. My boss was pretty emotional about it as they're pretty close, and my relationship with my boss has deteriorated massively over the last year or so for various reasons.

For the recent accusations, he has no evidence. I do often get frustrated by his inability & do not believe he belongs in this position, and I have made him aware that he really needs to up his game because it has a knock on affect to my work, but in no way have I ever 'bullied' him. I have said things like 'Mate you're really letting me down here, you need to buckle down and crack on because it's having a major affect on me'

2 - So, this same person claims to have witnessed me missing out key aspects of my work (testing electrical products). This was one day a few weeks ago, when him and others from his department were working in our department (this very rarely happens), he said he witnessed me missing out a number of things stated in procedure. There were 2 other people present at the time, none of them have come forward to make that same claim.

My question is this. My boss said that right now it is my word against is, and he does not intend to get anyone involved unless I specifically name people there. If I name witnesses, they will be interviewed.

The issue is the other two people, I do not know them well, they're in this other person's department, they're aware of my boss friendship with this person, I am afraid that they may back his story up, then it will be 3 v 1 instead of 1 v 1.

If I am sacked on my word vs his I believe I will have a good chance at tribunal. However, this could either swing 3 v 1 my side, or the other side, can someone please advise on what they think I should do?

Thank you!

EDIT: Just to make clear, those two other people are only possible witnesses to my incompetence, not the 'bullying'. There are no witnesses for that (because it's not true).

Often, its not just whats said, its hows its said.

And if theres no witnesses to you bullying this person, surely there must be witnesses to you not bullying them, ie, you both getting along just fine on a day to day basis. Might help?

Tenfourburt · 5 January 2019 at 6:22PM

I had a scenario at work a guy who after realising his bad attitude wouldnt push me into a corner then started grassing me up, he would mis-quote conversations, tale tales,
lodged complaints, repeatedly.

Because every boss likes an inside guy he very quickly got promoted from a yardsman to a health and safety advisor (with no experience, quals..)

There were never any witnesses to anything, but this guy got even more power hungry afyer his promotion and started inventing events...

I on the record had made it clear that he was inept, useless and had no added value to the company so every complaint he made was upheld&#55357;&#56834;

I eventually raised a grievance that I believed this person was actuslly using the companies grievance procedures to legally harrass me...

Everything stopped, it had to be taken seriously..

Thankfully he had a breakdown because he was out of his league and has taken up drinking for a living

Gross misconduct, my word against theirs

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