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  • FIRST POST
    • Danwj7
    • By Danwj7 11th Dec 17, 11:38 AM
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    Danwj7
    Sleep in confusion
    • #1
    • 11th Dec 17, 11:38 AM
    Sleep in confusion 11th Dec 17 at 11:38 AM
    Good morning, I work for a large care company and have done a number of sleep ins, with the recent news of sleep ins being paid at hourly rate I, like others got quite excited about a bit of extra money. That was until I learned that I wouldnít be getting an extra penny at all, why? Hereís the interesting and most frustrating part, my hourly rate is £9.35 per hour because I have worked my way up to being a senior support worker (I get it in the neck when things arenít right), now what my employers have done is evened out all hours worked, including sleep ins between July and November to give staff back pay for sleep ins, which is great unless youíre on a higher rate, as I am, my higher rate has compensated the sleep in money meaning I was only getting NMW for my shift, so me working hard to climb the ladder means nothing! Iíve been persecuted for doing well.
    Is anyone else in the same or similar situation?
    Dan James
Page 2
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 14th Dec 17, 5:37 PM
    • 38,625 Posts
    • 35,356 Thanks
    Savvy_Sue
    As an individual, I'd say no chance of getting anywhere with this. Which is partly why I said, join the union!
    Still knitting!
    Completed: 1 adult cardigan, 3 baby jumpers, 3 shawls, 1 sweat band, 3 pairs baby bootees,
    1 Wise Man Knitivity figure + 1 sheep, 2 pairs socks, 2 hats 2 balaclavas for seamen, 1 balaclava for myself ...
    Current projects: Poppies, mohair cardigan pattern arrived and going strong!
    • dawyldthing
    • By dawyldthing 14th Dec 17, 7:32 PM
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    dawyldthing
    With these type of jobs I thought the sleepover money was a bonus on top of NMW or wage rate.
    Originally posted by trigger fish
    No that's what it is seen as being (as in theory if you were needed for 2 hours you'd get paid the 2 hours) but now we get paid the hourly rate for the sleep ins. We're starting to get the back payment July to now, just waiting on a bit.

    In theory though, although not fair, they've just said as long as over your say 40 hour weeks including sleeps as long as it averages out at at least minimum wage then they've met what they need to do. Not saying it's fair but going forwards if you work say the 15 hour shift and sleep you'll get

    £67.50 - if a 9 hour sleep.

    15 hours of £9 an hour = £112.50

    Gives a £45 sleep in rate in theory as £1.50 an hour extra X 15 = £22.50 - £67.50 = £45 sleep in



    Mine seemed nearly £30 off for a few months back pay but I'm 10p over nmw so I think the same has happened to me, not to the same scale mind
    My targets to end 2018:
    1) To get down to 11 st 7lbs then treat to a safari. At start 17 stone 7 lbs: *61lbs lost* *30lbs to go*
    1st started SW16st13lbs tues11/7/17 - 38 weeks -53lbs
    2nd sw 14 st 12lbs Fri15/6/18 -> 0 weeks -0lbs
    2) to find new challenges
    • dawyldthing
    • By dawyldthing 14th Dec 17, 7:37 PM
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    dawyldthing
    The 6 years back pay will be interesting though as we're waiting on the mencap case in March and it depends when the 6 years kick in from to be honest
    My targets to end 2018:
    1) To get down to 11 st 7lbs then treat to a safari. At start 17 stone 7 lbs: *61lbs lost* *30lbs to go*
    1st started SW16st13lbs tues11/7/17 - 38 weeks -53lbs
    2nd sw 14 st 12lbs Fri15/6/18 -> 0 weeks -0lbs
    2) to find new challenges
    • matttye
    • By matttye 14th Dec 17, 9:22 PM
    • 4,728 Posts
    • 2,987 Thanks
    matttye
    They are not though. Her contract probably states something like £9 p/h plus £30 for a sleep in. That is what she agreed to and was happy to work.

    The government have decided that the sleep ins cannot take people down to less than minimum wage (NOT their contracted wage, the govt don't care or have say in that)

    In the OP's case, it does not. They haven't done anything with her contract. They never agreed to pay her £9 an hour on her sleep ins.

    My friend does sleep ins, for the vast majority of the time with his service user, he is asleep. If he does get woken and has to 'work' then he is paid hourly for that work. Care companies aren't rolling in money anyway, if they have to start paying supervisors extra money to sleep, they either will remove the service, remove those shifts for supervisors or pass those costs on to the service users which are already high...
    Originally posted by marliepanda
    Right I get this. But if the payment for the sleep ins brings the wage down to £7.50 per hour across the board then they are paying less than the £9 per hour that they are contractually obliged to pay.

    It doesn't matter what the government say - if a contract has been breached, the innocent party can sue the breaching party.

    Like I say, it depends on the contract.
    What will your verse be?

    R.I.P Robin Williams.
    • marliepanda
    • By marliepanda 15th Dec 17, 12:11 AM
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    marliepanda
    Right I get this. But if the payment for the sleep ins brings the wage down to £7.50 per hour across the board then they are paying less than the £9 per hour that they are contractually obliged to pay.

    It doesn't matter what the government say - if a contract has been breached, the innocent party can sue the breaching party.

    Like I say, it depends on the contract.
    Originally posted by matttye
    They were never contractually obliged to pay the £9 for the sleepover. Thatís as an additional agreed payment between OP and her employer.

    As the govt has decided that ALL hours Ďat workí have to be paid NMW they have worked out that OP was paid that.

    What she is contracted to be paid is irrelevant as the govt isnít saying everyone should get their contracted pay for sleeping, ONLY that the hours must not take people under minimum wage.

    OP agreed to do the sleep ins for a set payment. The fact the govt has moved the goalposts doesnít change what OP agreed to.
    • mac.d
    • By mac.d 15th Dec 17, 11:27 AM
    • 646 Posts
    • 519 Thanks
    mac.d
    I think in the long term its hoped these care organisations will be able to pay an hourly rate for the sleep in (albeit NMW), in the meantime, no one is earning any less than they were before the ruling, but some people are earning more. At least I think that's right?
    • marliepanda
    • By marliepanda 15th Dec 17, 11:34 AM
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    marliepanda
    I think in the long term its hoped these care organisations will be able to pay an hourly rate for the sleep in (albeit NMW), in the meantime, no one is earning any less than they were before the ruling, but some people are earning more. At least I think that's right?
    Originally posted by mac.d
    Not true. My friend used to work 40 hours at say £7.50 an hour, then he would get maybe 2 sleep ins a week, his were I think about £30.

    So he used to get £240 on top of his wage for two sleep ins a week, 8 a month.

    Now he gets 40hours at £7.50 an hour. No extra for sleep ins as thats now incorporated into his working hours, so to him, he's lost 240 an month. Yes he now has those hours free during the week but he doesn't want that! He'd rather have the money.

    The money for this has to come from somewhere. Care organisations set hours, salaries, shifts and costs to service users based on the old model. They can't just now change one thing, the sleepover pay, and leave the rest as is.

    Its almost the equivalent of the govt saying all hours on call are now at NMW, rather than the rate it is currently at. Most companies would struggle with backpaying this and struggle to maintain going forward without changes.
    • mac.d
    • By mac.d 15th Dec 17, 11:47 AM
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    mac.d
    So does that mean the company he works for has had to employ more staff to cover the same hours, as people like your friend still have the same hours, but effectively work less often? And if so, doesn't that mean his contract has changed as he no longer gets a payment for doing sleepins?
    • marliepanda
    • By marliepanda 15th Dec 17, 11:55 AM
    • 5,920 Posts
    • 12,578 Thanks
    marliepanda
    So does that mean the company he works for has had to employ more staff to cover the same hours, as people like your friend still have the same hours, but effectively work less often? And if so, doesn't that mean his contract has changed as he no longer gets a payment for doing sleepins?
    Originally posted by mac.d
    Yes they have taken on extra staff so that people are not doing over their allotted hours as they used to pay OT, no longer.

    They also have cut down on the amount of time they have 'handover' as that was over and above their service user agreements, so now theres only one person with each user at any time whereas before there would be 2 hour an hour or so each shift change.

    My friend IS being paid for sleep-ins at NMW, but it is rolled up into his hours.

    yes he now works 'less' during the day but he used to have 3/4 days off anyway as his shifts would often be over 12 hours as 'broken up' by sleep ins. Now he has more time off but less money, when he had plenty of time off anyway, and theres no OT available as his company cant afford it. The shifts have also been changed to accommodate this as well and now theyre a little more awkwardly placed but thats not an employment matter, just an annoying factor for him.
    • JayJay666
    • By JayJay666 14th Mar 18, 11:44 AM
    • 1 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    JayJay666
    Care companies have to pay up!!
    The latest news on this is that care companies have been underpaying staff who have only been getting a flat rate for a 7-8 hour sleep in.
    They got away with only paying £25-£30, where they should of been paying the NLW for each hour that the staff member was asleep but on duty!
    Mencap are appealing the decision so every care company is waiting to see what the outcome is.
    This can be back dated 6 years.
    So, if you are like me and worked a lot of sleep ins there might be a few quid coming your way.
    • redpete
    • By redpete 14th Mar 18, 8:57 PM
    • 4,257 Posts
    • 3,785 Thanks
    redpete
    So, if you are like me and worked a lot of sleep ins there might be a few quid coming your way.
    Originally posted by JayJay666
    And maybe losing your job or hours because the organisation can't afford to provide the same service at a price they are able to charge.
    loose does not rhyme with choose but lose does and is the word you meant to write.
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 14th Mar 18, 9:58 PM
    • 38,625 Posts
    • 35,356 Thanks
    Savvy_Sue
    If you were being paid NMW for your waking hours, then yes, they have been judged to have been underpaid.

    However, what many companies are doing - quite legally - is averaging ALL hours worked, day and night, and if the AVERAGE rate of pay was NMW (now LW for some workers) or above, then no more is due.

    There is a crisis in residential care brewing ...
    Still knitting!
    Completed: 1 adult cardigan, 3 baby jumpers, 3 shawls, 1 sweat band, 3 pairs baby bootees,
    1 Wise Man Knitivity figure + 1 sheep, 2 pairs socks, 2 hats 2 balaclavas for seamen, 1 balaclava for myself ...
    Current projects: Poppies, mohair cardigan pattern arrived and going strong!
    • humptydumptybits
    • By humptydumptybits 1st May 18, 3:50 PM
    • 558 Posts
    • 1,040 Thanks
    humptydumptybits
    The 6 years back pay will be interesting though as we're waiting on the mencap case in March and it depends when the 6 years kick in from to be honest
    Originally posted by dawyldthing
    HMRC are saying it is 6 years from the date you join the SCCS, seems unfair that if an organisation joined promptly they have to go back to 2011 but if your organisation puts off joining till December 2018, the latest date for joining, they only have to go back to December 2012.
    • humptydumptybits
    • By humptydumptybits 1st May 18, 3:52 PM
    • 558 Posts
    • 1,040 Thanks
    humptydumptybits
    If you were being paid NMW for your waking hours, then yes, they have been judged to have been underpaid.

    However, what many companies are doing - quite legally - is averaging ALL hours worked, day and night, and if the AVERAGE rate of pay was NMW (now LW for some workers) or above, then no more is due.

    There is a crisis in residential care brewing ...
    Originally posted by Savvy_Sue
    It is legal and it is the way HMRC are telling them to do it. The other interesting bit is if they underpaid you six years ago they have to now pay that at todays rate. It is all so complicated.
    • dawyldthing
    • By dawyldthing 1st May 18, 6:22 PM
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    dawyldthing
    HMRC are saying it is 6 years from the date you join the SCCS, seems unfair that if an organisation joined promptly they have to go back to 2011 but if your organisation puts off joining till December 2018, the latest date for joining, they only have to go back to December 2012.
    Originally posted by humptydumptybits
    Has that come out today then? If so it will go back as long as I've worked for them so will get a tidy amount next March
    My targets to end 2018:
    1) To get down to 11 st 7lbs then treat to a safari. At start 17 stone 7 lbs: *61lbs lost* *30lbs to go*
    1st started SW16st13lbs tues11/7/17 - 38 weeks -53lbs
    2nd sw 14 st 12lbs Fri15/6/18 -> 0 weeks -0lbs
    2) to find new challenges
    • humptydumptybits
    • By humptydumptybits 1st May 18, 8:22 PM
    • 558 Posts
    • 1,040 Thanks
    humptydumptybits
    My employer joined the SCCS (Social Care Compliance Scheme) and I saw the guidelines. If your employer hasn't joined the scheme you can report them to HMRC, they have got till December to do it. If I was you I would ask them what they are doing about the six years. It is a massive review to do, you literally have to go back over pay records for each member of staff who is likely to be underpaid and work out each month. They have to get it done by December so it would be a bad idea for them to leave it till the last minute. Once they complete the investigation they have 3 months to make the payment so the latest date is next March. You will have to pay tax, NI, pension contributions on it and if you have been in receipt of any benefits (tax credits/housing benefit etc) you have to report the payment received for each year, your employer will break down the payments into tax years.

    Good luck and let us know how you get on, I reckon some people are going to get tens of thousands.
    • dawyldthing
    • By dawyldthing 6th May 18, 6:14 PM
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    dawyldthing
    My employer joined the SCCS (Social Care Compliance Scheme) and I saw the guidelines. If your employer hasn't joined the scheme you can report them to HMRC, they have got till December to do it. If I was you I would ask them what they are doing about the six years. It is a massive review to do, you literally have to go back over pay records for each member of staff who is likely to be underpaid and work out each month. They have to get it done by December so it would be a bad idea for them to leave it till the last minute. Once they complete the investigation they have 3 months to make the payment so the latest date is next March. You will have to pay tax, NI, pension contributions on it and if you have been in receipt of any benefits (tax credits/housing benefit etc) you have to report the payment received for each year, your employer will break down the payments into tax years.

    Good luck and let us know how you get on, I reckon some people are going to get tens of thousands.
    Originally posted by humptydumptybits
    Ah I was wondering (and hoping) it got broke up into the different years as there's less likely I'll pay student loan on the lot whereas if it was all next year I would. I work for a big company and I believe there going through the records as I got a reply the other week and they said they expected to pay it late March next year. I'll be one of them due a heck of a lot of money, but a lot will go on the stoppages. Still can't help but think this court case going on will be another spanner in the works though
    My targets to end 2018:
    1) To get down to 11 st 7lbs then treat to a safari. At start 17 stone 7 lbs: *61lbs lost* *30lbs to go*
    1st started SW16st13lbs tues11/7/17 - 38 weeks -53lbs
    2nd sw 14 st 12lbs Fri15/6/18 -> 0 weeks -0lbs
    2) to find new challenges
    • dawyldthing
    • By dawyldthing 6th May 18, 6:23 PM
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    • 2,907 Thanks
    dawyldthing
    https://www.skillsforcare.org.uk/Documents/Events/PA-events-2018/The-NMW-Sleep-in-shifts-the-Social-Care-Compliance-Scheme-SCCS.pdf
    My targets to end 2018:
    1) To get down to 11 st 7lbs then treat to a safari. At start 17 stone 7 lbs: *61lbs lost* *30lbs to go*
    1st started SW16st13lbs tues11/7/17 - 38 weeks -53lbs
    2nd sw 14 st 12lbs Fri15/6/18 -> 0 weeks -0lbs
    2) to find new challenges
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