Not registered as self employed

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Hi, I've been running an Etsy shop for about 5 years now (and another Etsy shop for about 3 years) and I didn't realise that even though I don't earn anywhere near enough to pay tax I still need to be registered as self-employed.

I'm just looking for some advice as to the best way to sort this out as I'm really worried there could be a big fine.

(My parents have suggested I just register now and claim I started it up within the last few months, but I feel like lying about it might make the situation worse).
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  • 00ec25
    00ec25 Posts: 9,123 Forumite
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    Rhi97 wrote: »
    I don't earn anywhere near enough to pay tax I still need to be registered as self-employed. .
    is this your ONLY source of income or do you have a proper job as well?

    if your self employed gross income (not the same as net profit) is £1,000 or less then you do not have to declare it anyway since the Trading Allowance covers it
  • Rhi97
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    The only other source of income I have is student loan and I'm not sure of the exact figure but I make about £3000-£4000 a year through both Etsy shops.
  • TheCyclingProgrammer
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    It used to be that there was a requirement to register as self-employed due to the requirement to pay class 2 NIC unless you had a small earnings exemption if you earned below the threshold.

    This is no longer the case as class 2 NIC is now collected through your tax return only if you earn enough (or choose to pay voluntarily) so I don't think there is now a statutory requirement to register as self-employed. The only obligation is to notify HMRC if you are chargeable to tax. I cannot remember when this changed but it might have been over 5 years ago.

    As such, assuming this changed before you started your business and if you have always earned below a) the personal allowance including any other income and b) below the class 2 NIC threshold then I do not believe you have any requirement to notify HMRC.

    Even if this were not the case, penalties for failure to notify are based on how much tax you owe which in this case would be nothing. At worst HMRC would ask you to file tax returns for the missing periods.

    Furthermore as mentioned above there is now also the trading allowance which covers small self-employed earnings in addition to the personal allowance.

    Hopefully you have still been keeping records of your income as evidence of the above.
  • tebthereb
    tebthereb Posts: 162 Forumite
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    A student loan is not income so sounds like you are below all the thresholds for registration and payment of tax.
  • Rhi97
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    In the past my earnings have been below the class 2 NIC threshold but this year I think it's likely to go over so I probably do need to register now right?

    And if I do register now do I need to put the date I actually started my business or just the start of this year when I started making enough to need to register?
  • unholyangel
    unholyangel Posts: 16,863 Forumite
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    Rhi97 wrote: »
    In the past my earnings have been below the class 2 NIC threshold but this year I think it's likely to go over so I probably do need to register now right?

    And if I do register now do I need to put the date I actually started my business or just the start of this year when I started making enough to need to register?

    I'm going to disagree with the above, personal allowance has no bearing on whether you need to notify HMRC because if you are self employed and earning more than £1000 in revenue (not profit), then you are required to register for self assessment. Although I'd also stress having to file a tax return doesn't mean you'll be liable to pay anything.

    I'd also caution against being dishonest. Thats a slippery slope that is 20 years long - which is how long you can be held liable if you did it deliberately (ie more than just careless). Especially risky when you're not operating on a cash only basis (in other words, paper trail through bank accounts etc).

    Remember and tell them if you stop. They'll keep expecting returns from you until you inform them otherwise.
    You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride
  • 00ec25
    00ec25 Posts: 9,123 Forumite
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    I'm going to disagree with the above, personal allowance has no bearing on whether you need to notify HMRC because if you are self employed and earning more than £1000 in revenue (not profit), then you are required to register for self assessment. Although I'd also stress having to file a tax return doesn't mean you'll be liable to pay anything.
    agreed. Required to register for tax return if self employed turnover (income) > £1,000

    you can always argue at point of registration that you have zero taxable income and therefore pointless doing a tax register, They may decide to not waste your and their time processing a null return. However, you must have informed HMRC that your self employment >£1,000 exists

    read the online info
  • TheCyclingProgrammer
    TheCyclingProgrammer Posts: 3,702 Forumite
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    edited 18 October 2019 at 12:54PM
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    Under what legislation is there a statutory requirement to notify HMRC that you are self-employed if your earnings are below the class 2 NIC threshold and personal allowance? What would the penalty for failure to notify be for somebody who owes neither of the above?

    Just because some HMRC guidance somewhere says you must register for self-employment, it doesn't mean this is the law. For years HMRC said that you needed to register for self-assessment if you were a company director. This had no basis in law either.

    If a taxpayer is not already in self-assessment and does not receive a notice to file a tax return, then they do not have an obligation to file a tax return, they only have a liability to notify HMRC if they are chargeable to tax:

    https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/self-assessment-legal-framework/salf210

    As I said, you used to have to register automatically because the default position was that if you were self-employed, you were liable to pay class 2 NIC, even if you were under the threshold, unless you explicitly applied for a Small Earnings Exemption. These no longer exist as class 2 NIC is now calculated based on your earnings and collected via self-assessment. Therefore if your earnings are below the class 2 NIC threshold and for income tax purposes you are covered by any of the available allowances, then you have nothing to notify HMRC about.

    I'll also point you towards HMRC's guidance on failure to notify penalties:
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/807229/CC-FS11_0719.pdf

    Note under examples of circumstances where you should have notified HMRC it says:

    "your profits from self-employment first make you chargeable to tax - you must tell us within 6 months of the end of the relevant tax year"

    Not "you first become self-employed", but "your profits...make you chargeable to tax".

    Its worth mentioning however that even if you are not liable to pay class 2 NIC you may wish to register as self-employed and make voluntary contributions in order to entitle you to state benefits.
  • unholyangel
    unholyangel Posts: 16,863 Forumite
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    Under what legislation is there a statutory requirement to notify HMRC that you are self-employed if your earnings are below the class 2 NIC threshold and personal allowance? What would the penalty for failure to notify be for somebody who owes neither of the above?

    Just because some HMRC guidance somewhere says you must register for self-employment, it doesn't mean this is the law. For years HMRC said that you needed to register for self-assessment if you were a company director. This had no basis in law either.

    If a taxpayer is not already in self-assessment and does not receive a notice to file a tax return, then they do not have an obligation to file a tax return, they only have a liability to notify HMRC if they are chargeable to tax:

    Actually, it states:
    There are exceptions to this requirement. These are where the taxpayer has no chargeable gains (or such gains as there are do not exceed the annual exempt amount), and either:

    has no net liability to income tax for the year, or
    has had sufficient tax deducted at source to meet the net income tax liability for the year.

    Its also explicitly stated on gov.uk:
    You must send a tax return if, in the last tax year (6 April to 5 April), you were:

    self-employed as a ‘sole trader’ and earned more than £1,000

    That annual exempt amount referenced in the manual you linked is referring to the £1000 - not the personal allowance (which is not an exempt amount, it is just liable to tax at a rate of 0%).
    You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride
  • Pennywise
    Pennywise Posts: 13,468 Forumite
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    It's what the law says that matters, not what the HMRC website says. HMRC have form for making up rules to suit them that have no basis in law. Like another poster has said above, they spent years saying directors "must" register and submit SA returns, despite there being no actual law to say that. Registration for SA for self employment is exactly the same situation - there is no LAW requiring it if there is no tax nor NIC liability.
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