Storage costs allowable re rented property?

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  • NeilW
    NeilW Posts: 143 Forumite
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    WHA wrote:
    In this case, I can't see why the removal and storage of your contents is anything at all to do with the lettings "business"

    I'm happy to be corrected by the relevant case law, but I would suggest that it is not for the Inspector to decide what assets are injected into a Letting business when an individual sets one up. As you say if the advert was that the property was furnished, then the Inspector has to answer 'what with', if not with the property that was put in storage once the tenant asked for an unfurnished let.

    In my view the letting business consists of the house and the furniture and therefore the expenditure is 'wholly and exclusively' for the purposes of the business and therefore allowable. In this case there is a clear separation between personal effects and furniture for the business (or at least I hope there is! ;))

    Certainly that is the argument I would push.

    NeilW
  • MarkyMarkD
    MarkyMarkD Posts: 9,912 Forumite
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    I don't agree with NeilW and I do agree with sarahlouise (as I usually do ;)).

    The letting business didn't exist at the outset.

    The property contained some personal effects, which weren't required for the letting business. Clearing the property to make it rentable is not a letting business expense - it's part of your normal moving out costs as a private individual. Storing them is even less relevant.

    As other posts have said, it would be different if the property had first been let furnished, and then let unfurnished - the furniture is then clearly part of the letting business's assets and storing them would be a letting business expense. Merely advertising it as furnished, though, doesn't make this the case IMHO.
  • fbrj
    fbrj Posts: 376 Forumite
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    Thank you all for your input, balanced views and suggestions. I was surprised that what is a relatively obscure technical point has generated the response it has! Who said taxation wasn't interesting.......:)

    I have scoured the www for similar situations. Although there is limited material the overall view (and outcome!) is that it seems to depend on the case officer. Sometimes it has been allowed ....sometimes it isn't (probably in the majority of cases).

    I will let you know what happens in due course........
  • NeilW
    NeilW Posts: 143 Forumite
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    MarkyMarkD wrote:

    As other posts have said, it would be different if the property had first been let furnished, and then let unfurnished - the furniture is then clearly part of the letting business's assets and storing them would be a letting business expense. Merely advertising it as furnished, though, doesn't make this the case IMHO.

    Why not. I agree that a letting business doesn't come into being until the property is first let. However I don't see why an injection of furniture at the beginning of a business should be treated any differently from an injection when the business is up and running.

    The section on pre-trading expenses states that pre-trading expenses are treated as though they were incurred on the day the business started. So my argument would be that you have let the house, the client wants it unfurnished, it is currently full of furniture and that needs removing. In other words the application of the pre-trading section of the law makes the expenses allowable.

    Additionally if I'd put a head lease and the furniture into a company prior to letting the house then I'm pretty certain nobody would be arguing about the storage costs.

    If I have a normal trading business and I inject a machine (say a computer) into a business at the start expecting to use it and then don't because of circumstance, would storing that not be allowable either?

    Is there a case that expressly deals with the point? If not, then I think it is worth arguing. I don't believe it is for the taxman to decide what is and isn't the assets of a business.

    NeilW
  • Cook_County
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    Incidentally my policy over many years of experience in similar cases has been to claim the 10% wear & tear allowance AS WELL. The rationale may be puzzling if the furniture is stored but in almost all cases the landlord will still be paying for insuring contents (implying there are some contents there) and the landlord will still have contents such as carpets, curtains, bathroom cabinets and kitchen accessories as well as a washing machine and dishwasher. I think bearing in mind what HMRCs manual says about the W & T allowance that there is a good case for this too...

    I also return to my original point that UK tax is irrelevant if it is creditable against the tax liability where you live...
  • fbrj
    fbrj Posts: 376 Forumite
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    Incidentally my policy over many years of experience in similar cases has been to claim the 10% wear & tear allowance AS WELL. The rationale may be puzzling if the furniture is stored but in almost all cases the landlord will still be paying for insuring contents (implying there are some contents there) and the landlord will still have contents such as carpets, curtains, bathroom cabinets and kitchen accessories as well as a washing machine and dishwasher. I think bearing in mind what HMRCs manual says about the W & T allowance that there is a good case for this too...

    I also return to my original point that UK tax is irrelevant if it is creditable against the tax liability where you live...

    The 10% W&T was not available as the property did not qualify as being furnished (although it did contain the contents - and more - that you listed). There was no tax liability where I was based......(so nothing to offset!).
  • Cook_County
    Cook_County Posts: 3,085 Forumite
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    I do not agree that the allowance is not due, take acccount of HMRCs own internal Property Income Manual, in particular the last paragraph of PIM3200 http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/pimmanual/PIM3200.htm

    I would certainly claim this, there is nothing to stop you repairing the return today if you are in time or claiming error or mistake relief for the past 5 years if need be...
  • fbrj
    fbrj Posts: 376 Forumite
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    I do not agree that the allowance is not due, take acccount of HMRCs own internal Property Income Manual, in particular the last paragraph of PIM3200 http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/pimmanual/PIM3200.htm

    I would certainly claim this, there is nothing to stop you repairing the return today if you are in time or claiming error or mistake relief for the past 5 years if need be...

    I must be missing something....how do I get round this (extract from PIM3200)??

    Title to the 10% deduction does not depend on the provision of each and every item in the list. The relief is calculated simply on the net rents and not on the cost of particular items. But the deduction is only due if furnished accommodation is genuinely provided. A furnished property is one which is capable of normal occupation without the tenant having to provide their own beds, chairs, tables, sofas and other furnishings, cooker etc. The provision of nominal furnishings will not meet this requirement. If the accommodation isn’t furnished, or only partly furnished, the 10% wear and tear allowance isn’t due.

    In my case the tenant provided his own...beds..chairs..sofas...tables..linen..cutlery etc etc. How can I say that I provided a furnished property...or are you saying that they were available but were not wanted (and I then had to put those items into storage)?
  • Cook_County
    Cook_County Posts: 3,085 Forumite
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    I would suggest that you read the words of the Concession, as against the internal Manual. Neither are statutory, so the Revenue could deny the claim but on the weight of the final sentence of the Manual Concession B47 should apply. You do have furnishings, so I do not think it up to an individual interpreter of the Concession who elaborated the text when he/she wrote an internal Manual to go above and beyond the wording. I have cut and pasted it here:

    B47: Furnished lettings of dwelling houses: wear and tear of furniture


    1 CAA 2001 ss 15(3), 35(2) (formerly CAA 1990 ss 28A(3), 61(2)) specifically exclude a claim for capital allowances on plant or machinery let for use in a dwelling house. Accordingly, capital allowances are not due on furniture and furnishings where the income from letting of furnished houses is assessable under Schedule A (or Schedule D Case VI, for income tax cases up to 1994/95 and periods before 1 April 1988 for corporation tax) and is outside the scope of TA 1988 s 503 (furnished holiday lettings).

    2 In practice, an allowance for wear and tear may be made, where capital allowances are not due, by deducting 10 per cent of the net rent received. For this purpose the rent is reduced by any part of the occupier’s council tax and water rates which the landlord pays. If the rental includes payments for services which would normally be borne by a tenant and the amounts involved are material, these too should be subtracted before calculating the 10 per cent deduction.

    3 Where the 10 per cent deduction is allowed, no further deduction is given for the cost of renewing furniture or furnishings, including suites, beds, carpets, curtains, linen, crockery, or cutlery. Nor is a further deduction allowed for chattels of a type which, in unfurnished accommodation, a tenant would normally provide for himself (for example, cookers, washing machines, dishwashers).

    4 However, in addition to the 10 per cent allowance, the landlord can also claim the cost of renewing fixtures which are an integral part of the buildings, and which are revenue repairs to the fabric. These are fixtures which would not normally be removed by either tenant or owner if the property were vacated or sold (for example, baths, washbasins, toilets). Expenditure on renewing such items may be treated as expenditure on repairs even though the 10 per cent allowance has been claimed.

    5 As an alternative to the 10 per cent allowance, the actual cost of renewing furniture, furnishings and chattels may be claimed as a deduction. The amount to be allowed is the actual cost of the replacements excluding any additions or improvements, and after deducting the scrap value or sale price of the items replaced. The cost of the original items is not expenditure on renewals and is not allowable.

    6 Whichever basis a taxpayer chooses to adopt should be consistently applied to all furnished properties rented out.

    7 Before 1975/76, when the 10 per cent basis started, there were several bases in common use. The Revenue will not disturb these so long as the let properties remain in the same ownership. Any properties acquired subsequently should be dealt with on one of the two bases described above.
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