Loler/ puwer in care sector context.

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ohreally
ohreally Posts: 7,525 Forumite
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in Employment, jobseeking & training
A young relative put one to me the other day. Visiting individuals in their home she has enquired if LOLER/ PUWER provisions are applicable in this case. Manual handling training has been provided at a basic level.

Lifting hoists in a private house with no safe working rating plate, lack of formal inspection documentation etc

Now while this is a domestic setting, it's also a workplace.

Over to you folks.
Don’t be a can’t, be a can.
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  • MH1927
    MH1927 Posts: 95 Forumite
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    http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/hsis4.pdf

    Its a grey area, but a lot of care home equipment only requires a pre use check rather than any ongoing maintenance. On going maintenance required only if equipment is subject to conditions that will cause deterioration leading to dangerous condition

    The link is old and I've never looked for updated info as all our equipment was returned.
  • dickydonkin
    dickydonkin Posts: 3,055 Forumite
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    edited 7 February 2019 at 6:18PM
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    Good Question - I'm going for it and I would say that LOLER does not apply for hoisting equipment PROVIDED it has been supplied by the individual who owns the house eg purchased privately.

    IF it was for example a mobile type device supplied by the employer, then my interpretation would suggest that the item would then become an item of 'Work Equipment' and would come within the remit of PUWER and LOLER.

    It's important to remember that it is only the lifting function that applies to LOLER and the other aspects of the equipment would be covered by PUWER.

    So I have stuck my neck out with my response, but it was something I had never thought about, but I will look it up for clarification.

    Edit to add: This document will shed a bit more light on the subject - every day is a school day as they say! :)

    http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/hsis4.pdf

    Just realised that it is the same link as the previous poster....but (sort of) clarifies the issue.
  • Nebulous2
    Nebulous2 Posts: 5,116 Forumite
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    Very grey area. If the people bought it themselves is one thing - and Loler may not apply as described in that leaflet. However if provided by council, OT etc then it would.

    The care provider has a duty of care towards employees, and those they care for. If they had concerns the equipment was unsafe and putting either party at risk they could refuse to provide care until the equipment was checked, regardless of whether it had to be.
  • dickydonkin
    dickydonkin Posts: 3,055 Forumite
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    Nebulous2 wrote: »
    The care provider has a duty of care towards employees, and those they care for. If they had concerns the equipment was unsafe and putting either party at risk they could refuse to provide care until the equipment was checked, regardless of whether it had to be.

    Shouldn't that read ' refuse to use the equipment' as opposed to 'refuse to provide care' as the latter contradicts your assertion regarding the provision of a duty of care by the provider?

    I get it that it may be difficult to provide a satisfactory level of care when any equipment intended to hoist patients is deemed faulty or unsuitable, however, I would like to think some temporary resolution could be implemented for the short term until the problem is resolved.
  • nicechap
    nicechap Posts: 2,852 Forumite
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    Using specialist equipment without training is a no no.

    Putting a kettle on would not fall into this category but using a Kango concrete breaker or battery powered hoist would. All 3 could cause injury to the users or others but a kettle would be everyday domestic equipment, kango or hoist are not.
    Originally Posted by shortcrust
    "Contact the Ministry of Fairness....If sufficient evidence of unfairness is discovered you’ll get an apology, a permanent contract with backdated benefits, a ‘Let’s Make it Fair!’ tshirt and mug, and those guilty of unfairness will be sent on a Fairness Awareness course."
  • ohreally
    ohreally Posts: 7,525 Forumite
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    So what part of the regulations are you saying this attracts and why?
    Don’t be a can’t, be a can.
  • nicechap
    nicechap Posts: 2,852 Forumite
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    Employers insurance won’t cover employee or others for using specialist equipment if not specifically trained & signed off in their use.
    Originally Posted by shortcrust
    "Contact the Ministry of Fairness....If sufficient evidence of unfairness is discovered you’ll get an apology, a permanent contract with backdated benefits, a ‘Let’s Make it Fair!’ tshirt and mug, and those guilty of unfairness will be sent on a Fairness Awareness course."
  • Nebulous2
    Nebulous2 Posts: 5,116 Forumite
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    dickydonkin wrote: »
    Shouldn't that read ' refuse to use the equipment' as opposed to 'refuse to provide care' as the latter contradicts your assertion regarding the provision of a duty of care by the provider?

    I get it that it may be difficult to provide a satisfactory level of care when any equipment intended to hoist patients is deemed faulty or unsuitable, however, I would like to think some temporary resolution could be implemented for the short term until the problem is resolved.

    It's a balancing act, and I'd like to think there was some negotiation first, rather than just pulling out - but no if it can't be done safely they could, maybe even should, refuse to be there. They also have a duty to their staff.

    If they refuse to use the equipment, not getting someone up for instance, but providing personal care in bed, the relationship with the person / family is likely to deteriorate very quickly.

    Continuing to operate while negotiating may well prolong the situation, whereas a threat to pull out will get generally get a service or new equipment very quickly.
  • dickydonkin
    dickydonkin Posts: 3,055 Forumite
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    edited 8 February 2019 at 2:05PM
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    nicechap wrote: »
    Using specialist equipment without training is a no no.

    Putting a kettle on would not fall into this category but using a Kango concrete breaker or battery powered hoist would. All 3 could cause injury to the users or others but a kettle would be everyday domestic equipment, kango or hoist are not.

    A 'domestic kettle' supplied and used in a commercial cafe would potentially come under the remit of PUWER - and Electricity at Work regulations - that very same kettle used in a domestic environment wouldn't, however, there are various legal requirements that the kettle should be supplied in a safe condition irrespective of the environment it is used.

    I can go and purchase both of the other items you alluded to and use them for my own personal needs and as such, wouldn't come under PUWER, however, in a work related situation, they would be deemed as 'work equipment' and would need to comply with appropriate regulations that apply - as with the kettle, the equipment must also be supplied in a safe condition.
  • ohreally
    ohreally Posts: 7,525 Forumite
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    This gets better. Employer informs they have never heard of LOLER and are instructing staff to use equipment anyway as it must be fit for purpose or it wouldn't have been supplied otherwise.

    Not my party so going to keep a distance and I'm reluctant to feed in information for it to come back and bite.
    Don’t be a can’t, be a can.
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