Party Wall issues

PennysIntoPounds

Please move to a more appropriate category if this isn't the most apt one, I couldn't see any that quite fit.

Some party wall questions if anyone can help...

We have completed a new build, and our neighbour is saying we need to permanently resolve a crack in their living room. The crack was pre-existing (evidenced by the builder) and according to builder has been painted over several times in the past.
We acknowledge that our building works may have made it evident once more, but is our neighbour correct in saying that 'it was identified and logged in the schedule of damages, which is classed as an official structural defect under Section 7 (2) of the party wall act 1996' and therefore we need to provide a permanent structural resolution?

The scaffolding was on their property for 14 weeks over the 10 week period (unbeknownst to us). Is their any leeway with this, as I don't know what the legal basis of the ten week period was. Neighbour wants £250 per week compensation for unlawful occupation of their land, is this a non-negotiable standard amount?

He also wants 2k for plants destroyed or damaged. Is their any reasonable reduction we can recommend as they don't seem at any point in the process to have asked for access to their plants or for us to supply more suitable containers.

He also wants us to remove the electrics box on our land as it is flush (ish) with his exterior wall and he maintains that this may cause damp issues and that he won't be able to reach behind to do any brickwork maintenance which will affect any future sale value. Is it reasonable for him to ask us to have major electricals work done for something that is on our property?

He has also given us 7 days to finalise an agreement or he will cease mutual negotiations and proceed his claim under a 'legally binding statutory addendum award under Section 10 of the party wall act which will incur avoidable surveyor fees at your expense'.
Is he within his rights to demand we agree within seven days or have no further recourse other than pay his surveyor fees and be legally bound by someone he's employed?

He has also requested that we put signage on our front gate of our house numbers, which is not practical. There is a sign by the gate entrance stating the house numbers. He's annoyed that post keeps being delivered to his house which is fair enough but seems a bit unreasonable to hold us responsible for rushed delivery workers.

Thanks for any advice, if its a fair cop then so be it but would be good to know what of his pompous ai generated legalese is actually correct.

marcia_

i cant help with your problems but crikey do you have a grumpy neighbour . 2k for plants, is he having a laugh.

koalakoala

i wouldn’t be happy with someone invading my property to build a house

WIAWSNB

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6683899/party-wall-issues

What agreements were made with this neighbour prior to the build? And did he turn down the option of engaging a PW Surveyor? (In which case, possibly a shame as they should have a handle on what's fair here.)

Scaffolding - how was this agreed? I presume you asked, and they said 'ok'? What was agreed about what would happen if time ran beyond the 10 weeks? Why was it there for more than twice as long?! Did the actual work overrun by this 14 weeks, or was the scaffolder slow in removing it? Did you offer or agree a price with the neighbour for them to allow this - any mention of money at all? Or are they making this £250pw claim now, after the event?

As I understand it, if you just asked permission and said it should take 10 weeks, and the neighbour agreed to this with no suggestion of payment, then he's stuffed. If, when the time overran, they still didn't agree compensation with you, and are only doing so at completion, then they are also stuffed. So, what was actually said and agreed?

(I'm not at all suggesting you don't owe them something as a moral gesture - a 14-week overrun beyond 10 is a bit 'wow' - but I do not believe they can retrospectively claim comp just because they want to. They cannot pluck a £250pw figure out of the air if it wasn't previously agreed. They would, instead, need to demonstrate an actual loss by the presence of the scaffolding, say if they needed to park their car off site at some cost.)

'Making good' any damage caused to their land is obviously a given, usually with a nice added gesture as a thanks - a few bottles or summat… So, what did your builders actually damage on their land, and have you offered and agreed to making it good? Do you have any pics of the way their ground was beforehand, so you can confirm - or rebut - their claims? As well as ensuring you do get it back to at least the previous state?

This crack - when were you first aware of it? Your builder reckons it was always there, but can he offer any proof? Have you taken LOTS of pics, some close-up, that might (should) show whether it was previously painted over? (A new crack would normally be crisp, clean-edged, and obviously fresh, with the separated paint edges a perfect match, and not unduly raised. The wall's surface finish should be even throughout, including right up to each side of the crack. An old crack that was previously filled or painted over, will often show signs of filler that run immediately alongside the crack, as say a very slightly raised track, or a slightly different texture (if the wall has any texture, then either side of the crack may be smoother by the use of filler). Previously painted cracks might also show as a thicker exposed paint edge if the crack re-opened, as the paint will have partially filled the crack. What wall finish are we talking about - rendered? Brickwork? If you compare the surface finish immediately either side of this crack with the rest of the wall, it is often obvious whether the crack is brand new. In short, the actual surface 'finish' around the crack should be unchanged, and the crack itself should be exactly that - a crisp opening in the finish. Nothing else.)

Ditto everything else. He cannot simply claim that your 'electrics box' will cause damp - there has to be credible risk of this occurring (have to say, I do not understand this issue - any chance of a pic?)

I also do not understand the house number signage issue - how can this be 'impractical'? Have to say, with the serious risk of disgruntlement, I wouldn't want any of my mail going next door…

As for the 7-day pressure tactic, it is entirely up to him whether to act on this, but I doubt he will. You don't have to give a full response, but you should reply courteously saying you are looking in to it and will get back to him asap. So, get answers to the above, and depending on this you will know your actual 'liability'. And, depending on this, you decide if you wish to agreed a figure to offer 'without prejudice' (is that the term?!), or to let him get on with a claim, which he almost certainly will not.

Do you have Legal Protection in your house insurance? If so, get the facts written down succinctly, and call them up.

KajiKita

I have been following this @WIAWSNB as PiP is an MSE friend of mine and I just wanted to say what an utterly awesome response 👏 Bravo.

KK

PennysIntoPounds

Thanks all for your comments

@WIAWSNB we have a mutual party wall surveyor, the neighbour has sent us this list of requests and said basically they'd rather we acquiesced to their requests rather than getting anyone else involved which will involve further fees, which is why I'm trying to work out if neighbour is being reasonable or trying to scare or bluff us. Unfortunately the surveyor has been absolutely useless which has not helped the situation on either side

There was not mention of money if scaffolding overran, he's asking after the event

The builders have made good any damage.

I don't currently know what will safely affix to our iron railings gate so can't quickly pop out and get house numbers. We will research and order these but in the meantime there is signage by the entry gate. We also take their post to them when it is incorrectly delivered to us

marcia_

if your agreement says nothing about what he is trying to claim let him take you to court

ExEstateAgent

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82142670#Comment_82142670

You say the builders have made good any damage, so why are they saying stuff about a crack and damaged plants?

Anyway, plants usually can grow back again.

You may want to keep on somewhat good terms with the neighbour and offer them a token sum for inconvenience of the scaffolding issue, or otherwise let them proceed with legal action. Before it gets to court they'd almost certainly be encouraged to go to mediation to come to a settlement but it sounds like they don't understand how things work and think it's all like American drama's where you 'sue their !!!!!!' for anything.

silvercar

if an old crack was fixed and has re-appeared as a result of your work, then you are responsible for fixing it.

Did your scaffolding block their access to their plants? If the plants were in containers then it would have been reasonable to move them before the scaffolding went up. £2k is a joke, unless they can produce proof of such value.

A picture of the electric box would be useful. Is this a meter boxed in with the side adjacent to them?

WIAWSNB

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82142670#Comment_82142670

"We have a mutual party wall surveyor, the neighbour has sent us this list of requests and said basically they'd rather we acquiesced to their requests rather than getting anyone else involved which will involve further fees, which is why I'm trying to work out if neighbour is being reasonable or trying to scare or bluff us. Unfortunately the surveyor has been absolutely useless which has not helped the situation on either side."

I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the remit of a PWA surveyor, but I'd have thought that this would be exactly the sort of issue they should be responsible for and resolving. What does the surveyor say about this crack? Did he check the neighbouring house before the work started? Did he take photos? On what grounds does your builder reckon it's an historic crack? The PWA surveyor can't just ignore this issue - it's his job! Who oversees PWA Surveyors? Do your research and find out. In any case, these 'further fees' your neighbour is threatening are for him to find, not you - he needs to prove his case in the absence of any other evidence.

"There was no mention of money if scaffolding overran, he's asking after the event." As I understand it, he therefore hasn't a chance of a claim. Of course, it would be right to offer something as a 'thanks' for all the inconvenience, and for them being so helpful in allowing the scaff and mess. That's worth a fair bit - a really nice hamper, a few bottles of spirits/decent wine. Think of this sum in terms of the overall extension cost - what's another £200-odd? And, assuming he accepts it, he will have acknowledged that it was a 'thank-you gift for the hassle', and not a payment.

"The builders have made good any damage." In which case the guy has zero claim, provided your useless PWA surveyor agrees it's all been done to an acceptable standard.

Does this include the crack? If so, double-zero chance.

"I don't currently know what will safely affix to our iron railings gate so can't quickly pop out and get house numbers. We will research and order these but in the meantime there is signage by the entry gate. We also take their post to them when it is incorrectly delivered to us." This is just weird! Surely you want your mail to be delivered safely to your door, without causing inconvenience to neighbours? So, if I were you, my response would be to apologise for hassle caused, and that you will, of course, address the lack of house number asap.

So, is the guy bluffing? Almost certainly yes, whether consciously or not - ie. whether he is 'trying it on', or is just misinformed. Will he get anywhere with this claim? Extremely unlikely it'll progress beyond a threatening 'legal' letter sent by a solicitor acting because they were paid by the guy to send it. Once you reply to point out everything has been resolved, and no payments were ever agreed, and that you've sent the cove a hamper, what else will this solicitor do? It'll cost the guy around £200 for every letter, and you nothing. If he's daft enough to ask the solicitor to send another letter, then you ask them to 'list and value their losses'. Will his house Legal Protection assist him on this? They might make the initial right noises to him based on what he tells them, but once they say, "You now need to get an independent surveyor to prove that the crack was a direct result of this work…", he'll see more £100's of costs building up. LegProt will only act if there is a greater than 50:50 chance of a positive outcome. I just can't see it happening for him.

And if the issue is as you describe, your Legal Protection should have your back and guide you if he tries it on.

NB: note my use of 'almost certainly'…

millie

Our party wall surveyor took lots of pictures before any work commenced one was a crack in out ceiling. Did your surveyor not take photos.