I really don't understand what a CETV is and how to calculate it

dutchcloggie

Hello,

For my divorce, I need to provide a pensions valuation including the additional state pension (cash equivalent). I have a mild form of dyscalculia and I have read about 30 websites but I still have absolutely no idea what I am being asked for here. Is it the amount of actual cash I have currently saved for my pension (which is a few thousand pounds)? Is it what the pension is projected to be when I retire? I have looked and looked but I just don't get it. The numbers make no sense and I don't understand the different types of pension schemes. 

I know I can ask my pension provider for this figure but currently the NHS pension scheme takes around 4 months to provide this figure. 
My ex has used a website (rather than obtaining a figure from her pension provider): https://www.finalsalarytransfer.com/p/67/db-pension-transfer-value-calculator but that site makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. Nor do any other calculators because they assume first and foremost that you understand what you are actually putting into the calculator. What numbers do I plug into a calculator?
And what about the figures for the State Pension? What do I include there?

I am sorry for being so stupid but it seems that everyone understands what all of this means because none of the sites I visited have been able to explain it in terms of what I understand. Can anyone help? Our divorce is "amicable" and we are not actually making any claims on each other's pensions so even a rough figure would be fine for us if it saves the months of waiting for a figure from NHS Pensions.

Thank you so much.

Dox

You need to ask the NHS for a CETV and make sure they know it is in relation to a divorce. If it takes four months, that's what it takes and I'm afraid you need to wait. Your ex also needs to get a formal CETV from her scheme, not rely on an online calculator. If things are amicable, keep it that way by ensuring you both use accurate figures.

Get a State Pension Forecast (free, online and immediate) and use that, assuming you are under State Pension Age: https://www.gov.uk/check-state-pension

Sounds as if you are both out of your depth on the pensions bit, so do make sure you get proper advice from your solicitor. 

dutchcloggie

Dox said:

You need to ask the NHS for a CETV and make sure they know it is in relation to a divorce. If it takes four months, that's what it takes and I'm afraid you need to wait. Your ex also needs to get a formal CETV from her scheme, not rely on an online calculator. If things are amicable, keep it that way by ensuring you both use accurate figures.

Get a State Pension Forecast (free, online and immediate) and use that, assuming you are under State Pension Age: https://www.gov.uk/check-state-pension

Sounds as if you are both out of your depth on the pensions bit, so do make sure you get proper advice from your solicitor. 

Thanks. That is sound advice. I'd like for her to do this as well. I'm not in a hurry with this divorce so I'd be happy to do it properly.
I don't have an additional state pension so that is not relevant? So it is just the CETV of my NHS pension I need to include here?
Thanks.

dutchcloggie

Further more, it appears that I am too young to have an Additional State Pension anyway so that is not applicable to me? If you have several pension plans from different jobs (say, NEST for one job and Royal London or Aviva or whatever from another), you'd need to provide a CETV for each other them, right? 

Silvertabby

Yes, a CETV from each pension provider.  No short cuts, no DIY - you have to ask each pension provider for a CETV for divorce purposes. 

Note that you have to tell them that it is for a divorce.  The calculations in respect of your NHS pension, in particular, will need to take that into account to be able to issue you with a Form E (the document the divorce court needs). 

ADD: I would tell your ex that any figures that she has obtained from the on-line calculator are just pie in the sky and won't be accepted by the court.

dutchcloggie

...

Silvertabby said:

Yes, a CETV from each pension provider.  No short cuts, no DIY - you have to ask each pension provider for a CETV for divorce purposes. 

Note that you have to tell them that it is for a divorce.  The calculations in respect of your NHS pension, in particular, will need to take that into account to be able to issue you with a Form E (the document the divorce court needs). 

ADD: I would tell your ex that any figures that she has obtained from the on-line calculator are just pie in the sky and won't be accepted by the court.

But how would the court know the figures are pie in the sky? Because we have agreed for a clean break and not to make any claims on anything the other owns, now or in the future, we are not actually required to provide documents to the court. We both merely complete the Statement of Information for the consent order. So I guess that means it is based on trust?

Silvertabby

dutchcloggie said:

...

Silvertabby said:

Yes, a CETV from each pension provider.  No short cuts, no DIY - you have to ask each pension provider for a CETV for divorce purposes. 

Note that you have to tell them that it is for a divorce.  The calculations in respect of your NHS pension, in particular, will need to take that into account to be able to issue you with a Form E (the document the divorce court needs). 

ADD: I would tell your ex that any figures that she has obtained from the on-line calculator are just pie in the sky and won't be accepted by the court.

But how would the court know the figures are pie in the sky? Because we have agreed for a clean break and not to make any claims on anything the other owns, now or in the future, we are not actually required to provide documents to the court. We both merely complete the Statement of Information for the consent order. So I guess that means it is based on trust?

But you didn't say that - in your first post you said that you needed to provide a pensions valuation.  Who asked you for that?  Your solicitor?  If so, then you need to specify to him/her that your intentions are for a clean break without any claims on each other.  Your solicitor will be used to asking for divorce CETV valuations, on the basis that these are joint marital assets for divvying up.

Your ex's solicitor may also be be labouring under the same assumption.

You will both need to ask your respective solicitors how to proceed.  If they say that you can just pluck a figure out of thin air, then that's fine - but as these are official court documents that may not be the case.

I've never seen the on-line calculator before, so I ran some figures through it - and I have to  say that the results seem to be as accurate (not) and as wide ranging as an on-line Zoopla house valuation. 

dutchcloggie

Silvertabby said:

But you didn't say that - in your first post you said that you needed to provide a pensions valuation.  Who asked you for that?  Your solicitor?  If so, then you need to specify to him/her that your intentions are for a clean break without any claims on each other.  

Ah. I thought I had mentioned this. The Statement of Information form needs to be completed. This tells the judge how much money we each have. I guess the point is that if the financial balance is wildly unfair, the judge may wish to check if the 'poorer' party really is sure they want a clean break with no claims on assets. It is a simple: how much capital do you each have and how many liabilities - kind of form. And one of the questions asks for a CETV.
We already have the agreement drafted up and ready. There is no negotiation needed and there also won't be a forensic investigation of each other's financial situation. It is based on trust and we are both OK with that. However, I do feel that if we are doing this on trust, the least we can do is to obtain accurate figures. I don't expect her to have a secret million quid somewhere (I mean, we did share our finances when we were married so I think I have a rough idea of what the figure should be).

I guess my question is: if the figure she provides is plucked out of thin air, does that invalidate the consent order?

Silvertabby

dutchcloggie said:

Silvertabby said:

But you didn't say that - in your first post you said that you needed to provide a pensions valuation.  Who asked you for that?  Your solicitor?  If so, then you need to specify to him/her that your intentions are for a clean break without any claims on each other.  

Ah. I thought I had mentioned this. The Statement of Information form needs to be completed. This tells the judge how much money we each have. I guess the point is that if the financial balance is wildly unfair, the judge may wish to check if the 'poorer' party really is sure they want a clean break with no claims on assets. It is a simple: how much capital do you each have and how many liabilities - kind of form. And one of the questions asks for a CETV.
We already have the agreement drafted up and ready. There is no negotiation needed and there also won't be a forensic investigation of each other's financial situation. It is based on trust and we are both OK with that. However, I do feel that if we are doing this on trust, the least we can do is to obtain accurate figures. I don't expect her to have a secret million quid somewhere (I mean, we did share our finances when we were married so I think I have a rough idea of what the figure should be).

I guess my question is: if the figure she provides is plucked out of thin air, does that invalidate the consent order?

That's a question for your solicitor, I'm afraid. 

Another point to ponder is your NHS pension - if you have several years under your belt, then that could be worth more than you think. Do you have a house to sell?  What normally happens with clean break divorces is that each marital asset (including property and pensions) is given a cash valuation, then the whole 'pot' is divvied up in accordance with your wishes (if your divorce is friendly) or as directed by the divorce court (if you are both fighthing for every penny).  However, that doesn't mean that each asset is split - a common option is for one party, say, to keep their pension while the other has the house (or a major share of it).

In my previous life as a LGPS administrator, I did umpteen pre divorce CETVs - but hardly any actual pension splits.  Probably because of the house/pension allocation.

dutchcloggie

I have already bought her out of the house and she wishes to buy a house with her new partner. Basically we just each want to keep what we currently have. The only thing is that the form asks: What do you currently have. So the figures on the form are more or less irrelevant as our agreement has nothing to do with the figures (unless she was to suddenly declare a few million quid she has squirreled away whilst we were still married :-) . I don't want what is hers, she doesn't want what is mine and we have already agreed what is hers and what is mine. 

Thrugelmir

Pensions are valuable assets. A reluctance to provide accurate figures tells a story in itself.