Who's liable for my tools destroyed in fire at workplace ?

MotoTed

Hi all.
I've got a tricky question. I was hoping someone here would have some experience or insight.
I went for a job at a workshop. The boss was keen to hire me but he said he'd put me on a trial for a few weeks to see how I got on. He told me to bring in my tools and do a couple of days a week in the workshop and he'd pay me under a self employed basis.
Basically i'd invoice him for days worked. I know that's naughty as it's being a disguised employee. It's a grey area but could be seen as illegal.

Two weeks into my 'trial' I get a phone call from one of the other technicians that the workshop had burned down with everything in it. Including over £3000 of my tools.
These tools are my livelihood and took me over ten years to accumulate.
At the moment I'm registered as self employed. I went for this job as I need a contract to buy a house with my fiancee.
I never had a contract with him as I'd literally only been there two weeks. (Four days)
He paid me cash into my bank account for two days work (January) so I have evidence that I was working there.
My tools are still there as a melted pile of metal in the corner of the workshop. Investigation is still on-going.
I don't have personal insurance for my tools as they were fully insured at my previous workplace. So it totally slipped my mind to privately insure them.
I have yet to see the boss. He seems to be impossible to get hold of. I appreciate his head is up his **** due to the fire though.

Any ideas here ??
I obviously want to claim on his insurance and keep my job. That would be the best outcome.
If I have to, I could take him to Small Claims court but I don't know who would be liable in my circumstances.
The boss has a reputation for being super cheap. The concept of him just paying for them out of his pocket out of good will is pretty much forgettable.
Thanks in advance.

comeandgo

Unless his insurance specifically covers others equipment it is up to you to insure your tools, especially as you are self employed. 

nicechap

MotoTed said:

Hi all.
I've got a tricky question. I was hoping someone here would have some experience or insight.
I went for a job at a workshop. The boss was keen to hire me but he said he'd put me on a trial for a few weeks to see how I got on. He told me to bring in my tools and do a couple of days a week in the workshop and he'd pay me under a self employed basis.
Basically i'd invoice him for days worked. I know that's naughty as it's being a disguised employee. It's a grey area but could be seen as illegal.

Two weeks into my 'trial' I get a phone call from one of the other technicians that the workshop had burned down with everything in it. Including over £3000 of my tools.
These tools are my livelihood and took me over ten years to accumulate.
At the moment I'm registered as self employed. I went for this job as I need a contract to buy a house with my fiancee.
I never had a contract with him as I'd literally only been there two weeks. (Four days)
He paid me cash into my bank account for two days work (January) so I have evidence that I was working there.
My tools are still there as a melted pile of metal in the corner of the workshop. Investigation is still on-going.
I don't have personal insurance for my tools as they were fully insured at my previous workplace. So it totally slipped my mind to privately insure them.
I have yet to see the boss. He seems to be impossible to get hold of. I appreciate his head is up his **** due to the fire though.

Any ideas here ??
I obviously want to claim on his insurance and keep my job. That would be the best outcome.
If I have to, I could take him to Small Claims court but I don't know who would be liable in my circumstances.
The boss has a reputation for being super cheap. The concept of him just paying for them out of his pocket out of good will is pretty much forgettable.
Thanks in advance.

You worked four days over 14 days on a self employed basis. As the premises has burned down along with your tools and you are expected to bring your own tools, not sure you have much hope of keeping your job.

What evidence do you have they were fully insured at previous workplaces?  Did you have explicit permission to keep your tools overnight at the premises? Do you know whether the workshop was insured or the cause of the fire?  

I can't see any early resolution whatever you do or whichever way this pans out.

LilElvis

Even if liable you would only receive the second hand value of the tools rather than what it would cost to replace them with new. Do some research as to what second hand replacements would cost before approaching him.

74jax

I'm not sure why being self employed is illegal?  As long as you invoice him and pay the necessary tax etc then everything is logged and ok.  Many people invoice hours after doing the work.

You say he told you to bring in your tools.  Is this in writing? an email? text?  did he say it's ok to leave them over night?

in your shoes, hindsight won't bring them back.  I would bend over backwards to help the owner.  Ask if he needs any help (you can't work after all), and somehow mention your tools and would he be able to add 3k on the insurance as the tools can clearly be seen there.  HOWEVER, his insurance might just cover his tools, his equipment etc, his policy should say what is covered.  Do you have receipts.  Have you checked your home insurance?

TELLIT01

You aren't employed by the company.  You are currently there on a self-employed basis for a couple of days a week to enable them to assess your skills and whether or not they should offer you a job as an employee.  As a self employed person you are responsible for ensuring your own tools and equipment.  You may be fortunate that their insurance covers them for damage to 3rd party equipment, but the only way to find out is to ask.

Ozzuk

I posted on your PH thread, but just thought of another point - if you were self employed did you have sufficient liability insurance ( in case you caused damage) - if you didn't have tool insurance then I'm guessing no so another thing to correct if you did somehow manage to keep job.

DCFC79

Ozzuk said:

I posted on your PH thread, but just thought of another point - if you were self employed did you have sufficient liability insurance ( in case you caused damage) - if you didn't have tool insurance then I'm guessing no so another thing to correct if you did somehow manage to keep job.

Which thread is that ?

The OP has only made 1 post and that's to start this thread.

Dakta

DCFC79 said:

Ozzuk said:

I posted on your PH thread, but just thought of another point - if you were self employed did you have sufficient liability insurance ( in case you caused damage) - if you didn't have tool insurance then I'm guessing no so another thing to correct if you did somehow manage to keep job.

Which thread is that ?

The OP has only made 1 post and that's to start this thread.

He's made a few posts, albeit beyond the boundaries of this website

feast here 

MotoTed

Hi all. Thanks for your replies. 
I was self employed at my last job. Its what's known as a labour only contractor. I was covered on their insurance for liability and my tools. I called up a few insurance companies at the time to see if I needed liability insurance and they told me I was covered for liability under their policy due to the circumstances..  It's a tricky and grey area being self employed but doing a job that is really as an employee.  Remember the big upset with Uber and the delivery companies keeping people self employed when really they acted like employees. It's basically being f**ked over by an employee so they don't have to pay you for sickness, holidays, pension etc. 
That's not the issue here though. 

I've talked to the boss. He said nothing in the workshop was insured. He said he will try and help me out. Whatever that means.  I guess as I was self employed, I should have had my own cover.  But I didn't.

I'm trying to keep on good terms with the guy.. In case he gets a good pay out and reimburses me. There is no job for me there now anyway. As there is no workshop. 

Life goes on.... 

Undervalued

MotoTed said:

Hi all. Thanks for your relies. 
I was self employed at my last job. Its what's known as a labour only contractor. I was covered on their insurance for liability and my tools. I called up a few insurance companies then to see if I needed liability insurance and they told me I was covered under their policy due to the circumstances..  It's a tricky and grey area being self employed but doing a job that is really as an employee.  Remember the big upset with Uber and the delivery companies keeping people self employed when really they acted like employees. It's basically being f**ked over by an employee so they don't have to pay you for sickness, holidays, pension etc. 
That's not the issue here though. 

I've talked to the boss. He said nothing in the workshop was insured. He said he will try and help me out. Whatever that means. 

I'm trying to keep on good terms. There is no job for me there now anyway. As there is no workshop. 

Yes, it is "tricky" but that has little to do with the situation regarding the loss of your tools.  To make matters worse it is perfectly possible to find that HMRC decide you are an employee but an employment tribunal may take the view that you are self employed! Neither is binding on the other!

Regarding the tools, they were your property regardless of your employment status. The "employer" would only be liable for them if they both agreed to you leaving them on the premises (did they?) but then failed to take reasonable care of them. The normal expectation is that you insure your own property or, if you choose, take the risk yourself.