If there isn't a hard-border what would stop Eastern European immigrants entering UK via Ireland??

andrewf75

Rich2808 wrote: »

Skilled builders and tradesmen from across the world can build houses - you can prioritise them like the Kiwis have under their points and skills based system.

And if you don’t have to house so many low skilled tax credit and housing benefit claiming people who aren’t UK and Irish citizens and aren’t net contributors you could solve demand and supply too.

except they *are* net contributers. They are mobile, flexible, overwhelmingly young and the brightest and most hard working. If the demand is no longer there they will go back - and many only ever planned to stay short term anyway giving us the benefit of their productive years without paying for their education or retirement.

The tax credit and housing benefits system is more the problem than the free movement. Had we addressed that we would have solved the problems that need solving and would have saved the cost of Brexit.

J_Nostin

andrewf75 wrote: »

except they *are* net contributers. They are mobile, flexible, overwhelmingly young and the brightest and most hard working. If the demand is no longer there they will go back - and many only ever planned to stay short term anyway giving us the benefit of their productive years without paying for their education or retirement.

You've fallen for the propaganda, that's all.

Even small towns in Britain tend to have at least one of these hand car washes & each has at least half a dozen workers. They generally aren't British and they are certainly not going to be earning enough to contribute to the country's finances. Again even small towns across the UK often now have at least one nail bar and again the workers are generally not British and will not be earning enough to contribute.

Then we're told that many thousands of workers come on a temporary basis for low-paid jobs as in agriculture; again you can't tell me that these workers earn enough to contribute to our country's finances to any meaningful extent. Barista's & counter staff like fast-food operatives; nursing & residential home care staff; and many many more examples where the UK has a high number of EU workers are not jobs that pay enough to contribute to the country's finances.

They are all likely to be the kind of jobs where the workers would be eligible to receive housing benefit, tax credits or UC though - and that together with the lies we've already been fed is why I find it difficult to believe that these workers "*are* net contributors". They are not.

Now I don't doubt that some do indeed contribute, but obviously not as many or by as much as we are led to believe.

Thrugelmir

J_Nostin wrote: »

You've fallen for the propaganda, that's all.

Even small towns in Britain tend to have at least one of these hand car washes & each has at least half a dozen workers.

One? We've loads here. At least 9 to my knowledge. One has been raided for people trafficking and holding people against their will. The individuals passports being removed. Effectively slave labour.

Then we've nail bars and hairdressers opening up as well.

andrewf75

J_Nostin wrote: »

You've fallen for the propaganda, that's all.

Even small towns in Britain tend to have at least one of these hand car washes & each has at least half a dozen workers. They generally aren't British and they are certainly not going to be earning enough to contribute to the country's finances. Again even small towns across the UK often now have at least one nail bar and again the workers are generally not British and will not be earning enough to contribute.

Then we're told that many thousands of workers come on a temporary basis for low-paid jobs as in agriculture; again you can't tell me that these workers earn enough to contribute to our country's finances to any meaningful extent. Barista's & counter staff like fast-food operatives; nursing & residential home care staff; and many many more examples where the UK has a high number of EU workers are not jobs that pay enough to contribute to the country's finances.

They are all likely to be the kind of jobs where the workers would be eligible to receive housing benefit, tax credits or UC though - and that together with the lies we've already been fed is why I find it difficult to believe that these workers "*are* net contributors". They are not.

Now I don't doubt that some do indeed contribute, but obviously not as many or by as much as we are led to believe.

I'm working from actual studies that have been done. I'd suggest you are the one falling for propaganda if you are going by anecdote rather than actual data analysis. have you got anything to back your view up?
I don't necessarily think the studies tell the whole story and there may be other ones reaching a different conclusion. Please link to them if you can. I am always open to changing my view based on evidence.

Zxcv_Bnm

Nail bars and tattoo parlours are for money laundering

The kind of people who have that done don't do credit cards they only do cash

So you put your dirty cash in the bank as the takings from your nail bar, nobody bats an eye, of course the takings are all cash

IRA did the same thing with pubs

J_Nostin

andrewf75 wrote: »

I'm working from actual studies that have been done. I'd suggest you are the one falling for propaganda if you are going by anecdote rather than actual data analysis. have you got anything to back your view up?
I don't necessarily think the studies tell the whole story and there may be other ones reaching a different conclusion. Please link to them if you can. I am always open to changing my view based on evidence.

It's fine to use actual studies as a basis from which to expand but not to blindly believe. As you suggest, the studies do not tell the whole story but it would very probably be seen as politically undesirable to accurately research how "foreigners" migrate to the UK and work.

Even Fullfact accepts that there are flaws in measuring and that it is difficult to measure.
Plus, and this is the "biggie", most of these figures are from pre-2011. Often many years before, too. In other words, these "studies" you refer to often relate to a time well before EU migration into the UK reached historic highs.

In 2004, just 1.5% of the UK population was from an EEA country. In 2017 that figure had risen to almost 6% of a far higher population. (Source: The Migration Observatory) Then of course the influx of eastern EU migrants largely happened after these studies you are basing your opinions on, chiefly Romanians; Lithuanians; and Latvians. (The car-washers and nail technicians are good examples, having only risen in their numbers recently.)

So the evidence is there if you are genuinely interested enough to look for it and not discount what you see, preferring to believe what you're told.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

J_Nostin wrote: »

the evidence is there if you are genuinely interested enough to look for it and not discount what you see,.

So 'round my way' McDonalds pay £10.50 an hour for entry level burger flippers, unemployment is less than 2%, and there is a dire shortage of unskilled/low-skilled labour for jobs that need to be done.

Hotel beds won't make themselves, counters need to be manned, toilets need to be cleaned, care given to people in facilities, food cooked, and taxis driven.

Attracting more high skilled migration of doctors and engineers is utterly irrelevant to solving these immediate and critical labour shortages.

That's the reality in huge swathes of the country.

And those problems can't be solved with anything other than importing more people.

Matt_L

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

So 'round my way' McDonalds pay £10.50 an hour for entry level burger flippers, unemployment is less than 2%, and there is a dire shortage of unskilled/low-skilled labour for jobs that need to be done.

Hotel beds won't make themselves, counters need to be manned, toilets need to be cleaned, care given to people in facilities, food cooked, and taxis driven.

Attracting more high skilled migration of doctors and engineers is utterly irrelevant to solving these immediate and critical labour shortages.

That's the reality in huge swathes of the country.

And those problems can't be solved with anything other than importing more people.

Hell, its gone up by 50p an hour since last week, must be getting desperate...

margaretx9

Matt_L wrote: »

Hell, its gone up by 50p an hour since last week, must be getting desperate...

How did we cope pre 2004 - we had automatic car washes and some women even used to polish their own fingernails. We all starved as well as all the fruit rotted in the fields and had cholera and typhoid due to all those dirty uncleaned toilets.

Perhaps having 8 car washers on minimum wage (if they are getting that) on tax credits and HB is progress compared to the old fashioned car wash?

Of course the official statistics only tell you the official story - cash in hand, slave labour, trafficking and more probably aren't picked up by those nice middle class people from the ONS with their clipboards doing surveys.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Matt_L wrote: »

Hell, its gone up by 50p an hour since last week, must be getting desperate...

I'm sure they are.

But perhaps you'd care to address the substantive point.

What the heck are we supposed to do about the critical shortage of labour in huge parts of the UK if not import more people?