Murials - what's your feeling?

GlynD

emmett123 wrote: »

it would appear that new mood of acceptance and tolerance in the six counties has it limitations when it come to this stuff...

the only people who deserve to be honored are the crown forces? an organisation sent to Ireland to murder and deny the democratic expression of its people and to fund, arm and train their proxy loyalist squads.

Not at all. The south is Irish and entitled to do as it wishes. Here in the north we are British by choice and entitled to do as WE wish. Crown forces represent the majority in this country.

If you want to talk about "squads" why not start with the "Unknowns" or the "Nutting Squad". Now they gave people a democratic expression ok didn't they? I saw a TV programme about it the other night - "The Disappeared".

Now THAT's democracy for you. (not).

I also remind you that the democratic expression of the majority of the people of Northern Ireland has been to remain British. Mandated by referendum on several different occasions in my lifetime. Fancy having another one now, when the BBC reckon that 80% of RC's would prefer the economic stability of the union to the bleak uncertainty of reunification?

I know where you can buy your sash. :rotfl:

emmett123

GlynD wrote: »

Not at all. The south is Irish and entitled to do as it wishes. Here in the north we are British by choice and entitled to do as WE wish. Crown forces represent the majority in this country.

If you want to talk about "squads" why not start with the "Unknowns" or the "Nutting Squad". Now they gave people a democratic expression ok didn't they? I saw a TV programme about it the other night - "The Disappeared".

Now THAT's democracy for you. (not).

I also remind you that the democratic expression of the majority of the people of Northern Ireland has been to remain British. Mandated by referendum on several different occasions in my lifetime. Fancy having another one now, when the BBC reckon that 80% of RC's would prefer the economic stability of the union to the bleak uncertainty of reunification?

I know where you can buy your sash. :rotfl:

you neednt come with lessons in democracy to me Glyn. The unionists of Ireland when faced with fact that 80% of the entire island from around 1870 right through to 1912 voted consistently for Home Rule. When the Nationalist had played by the parliamentary rules, what did the loyal peace loving unionists do? Their heroes Craig and Carson (honored in Stormont) set up the paramilitary terrorist grouping of the UVF and then armed them with weapons bought of the UK's enemy Germany and smuggled them home. The borders of the 6 County state are false, drawn in such way to ensure a artificial majority. I mean i am in majority in this kitchen right now, cause everyone else in the sitting room. Any why this hankering after the word Ulster, when if the Unionists truly loved Ulster they would not have abandoned their brethren in Cavan, Donegal and Monaghan.

highrisklowreturn

good for shows of strength

GlynD

emmett123 wrote: »

you neednt come with lessons in democracy to me Glyn. The unionists of Ireland when faced with fact that 80% of the entire island from around 1870 right through to 1912 voted consistently for Home Rule. When the Nationalist had played by the parliamentary rules, what did the loyal peace loving unionists do? Their heroes Craig and Carson (honored in Stormont) set up the paramilitary terrorist grouping of the UVF and then armed them with weapons bought of the UK's enemy Germany and smuggled them home. The borders of the 6 County state are false, drawn in such way to ensure a artificial majority. I mean i am in majority in this kitchen right now, cause everyone else in the sitting room. Any why this hankering after the word Ulster, when if the Unionists truly loved Ulster they would not have abandoned their brethren in Cavan, Donegal and Monaghan.

Ah but I do need to come up with lessons in democracy Emmett. While the events of 100 years ago are interesting and are undoubtedly part of our history there's no point in using them in trying to justify the events of today. The people who committed the atrocities in modern times are largely still alive. The very same people who swore to uphold the ideals of a nationalist Ireland or God and Ulster. We see the skin crawling attempts of people like Gerry the Liar trying to deny their own part in it and it's sickening.

Let's have a look at the other side - just one name: Winston Irvine. Who would ever vote for such a thug, but people do. Are they so blind?

We shouldn't have to live with people like this representing us in politics. I would never vote for them because they don't represent my view of an integrated Northern Ireland: note I say Northern Ireland, not Ulster, although as Northern Ireland is in Ulster I don't see the problem using the term.

Although it is fair to say that history does repeat itself, showing that both sides of the argument are capable of law breaking and terrible violence, not just towards each other but to the innocents who they swore to protect. This is very evident in the continuing hold that paramilitaries on both sides are trying to exercise towards the population in certain areas with the establishment of these terrorist murials.

Which brings us neatly back to the point - or pointless: murials.

Oh and by the way - Edward Carson was a unionist in every sense of the word. He stood for a united Ireland.

qwert_yuiop wrote: »

Yea, it does, doesn't it, emmett?

Let's give this guff a rest on a money savers' forum. Slugger o'toole is there for the belly aching.

Emmett and I enjoy a wee bit of fencing on these matters. We know where to draw the line.

emmett123

GlynD wrote: »

Ah but I do need to come up with lessons in democracy Emmett. While the events of 100 years ago are interesting and are undoubtedly part of our history there's no point in using them in trying to justify the events of today. The people who committed the atrocities in modern times are largely still alive. The very same people who swore to uphold the ideals of a nationalist Ireland or God and Ulster. We see the skin crawling attempts of people like Gerry the Liar trying to deny their own part in it and it's sickening.

Let's have a look at the other side - just one name: Winston Irvine. Who would ever vote for such a thug, but people do. Are they so blind?

We shouldn't have to live with people like this representing us in politics. I would never vote for them because they don't represent my view of an integrated Northern Ireland: note I say Northern Ireland, not Ulster, although as Northern Ireland is in Ulster I don't see the problem using the term.

Although it is fair to say that history does repeat itself, showing that both sides of the argument are capable of law breaking and terrible violence, not just towards each other but to the innocents who they swore to protect. This is very evident in the continuing hold that paramilitaries on both sides are trying to exercise towards the population in certain areas with the establishment of these terrorist murials.

Which brings us neatly back to the point - or pointless: murials.

Oh and by the way - Edward Carson was a unionist in every sense of the word. He stood for a united Ireland.



Emmett and I enjoy a wee bit of fencing on these matters. We know where to draw the line.

I know you would like to write off historical events as strange curiosities and has having no relevance today, but you will be aware that politicans here thrive on the reliving of history. Take for example the Orange order parading their bigotry through our streets each summer to recall 1690, or indeed the Remembrance Sunday where the gov.t take the opportunity to remind citizens that they will need bodybag fillers from time to time. Or the recent "fleg" protests prompted by a history when Unionists where a majority in Belfast.

Oh yes, those who committed the atrocities are by and large still alive, indeed some those on the Republican and Loyalist actually served some time in prison for that. That is quite unlike those members of Crown forces (Brits & RUC) who could terrorize and kill with impunity and never faced a day in prison.

yet those Crown forces, un-convicted terrorists, are your preferred terrorists, arent they? you dont seem to mind that they colluded with loyalists, and never served a day. You have even started a thread helping to get them a pension.

And you express disgust that people would actually vote for Republican or loyalist parties. Is your problem that "stupid" people have a vote, or is it more like, those pesky working class protestants don't fall into line behind the DUP or UUP like they used to?

Of course I have no need to remind you how respectable Unionists work hand in hand with loyalist killers.. take for Willy McCrea and Billy Wright, Or Peter Robinson in his wee beret, or David Trimble in his Vanguard days.

It would appear that loyalists, in the view of "nice unionists", were only useful for the dirty work, but now they can !!!! off back to whatever little inner city streets they come from.

And I take with a pinch of salt that you believe in an integrated "Northern Ireland", it would appear that you hanker after the days of one party rule majority rule, where all the symbols (cenotaphs and flags etc) reflected the British population.

A truly integrated "Northern Ireland" would have in addition to the British War Memorial, a separate memorial at Belfast City Hall for Vol. Martin Meehan and all his comrades, with the Lord Mayor, no matter his stripe, laying a bouquet of Easter Lillies for them. Then there would be no need for murals painted on walls.

But, hate to break it you Glyn, that future is on the way... and might be here sooner than you think. And then my idea to have no war paraphernalia won't seem so crazy.

GlynD

emmett123 wrote: »

I<snip>.

Lots to reply there Emmett but I'm otherwise committed at the moment. It probably won't be until the morning.

Keep 'er lit.

GlynD

emmett123 wrote: »

I know you would like to write off historical events as strange curiosities and has having no relevance today, but you will be aware that politicans here thrive on the reliving of history. Take for example the Orange order parading their bigotry through our streets each summer to recall 1690, or indeed the Remembrance Sunday where the gov.t take the opportunity to remind citizens that they will need bodybag fillers from time to time. Or the recent "fleg" protests prompted by a history when Unionists where a majority in Belfast.

Oh yes, those who committed the atrocities are by and large still alive, indeed some those on the Republican and Loyalist actually served some time in prison for that. That is quite unlike those members of Crown forces (Brits & RUC) who could terrorize and kill with impunity and never faced a day in prison.

yet those Crown forces, un-convicted terrorists, are your preferred terrorists, arent they? you dont seem to mind that they colluded with loyalists, and never served a day. You have even started a thread helping to get them a pension.

And you express disgust that people would actually vote for Republican or loyalist parties. Is your problem that "stupid" people have a vote, or is it more like, those pesky working class protestants don't fall into line behind the DUP or UUP like they used to?

Of course I have no need to remind you how respectable Unionists work hand in hand with loyalist killers.. take for Willy McCrea and Billy Wright, Or Peter Robinson in his wee beret, or David Trimble in his Vanguard days.

It would appear that loyalists, in the view of "nice unionists", were only useful for the dirty work, but now they can !!!! off back to whatever little inner city streets they come from.

And I take with a pinch of salt that you believe in an integrated "Northern Ireland", it would appear that you hanker after the days of one party rule majority rule, where all the symbols (cenotaphs and flags etc) reflected the British population.

A truly integrated "Northern Ireland" would have in addition to the British War Memorial, a separate memorial at Belfast City Hall for Vol. Martin Meehan and all his comrades, with the Lord Mayor, no matter his stripe, laying a bouquet of Easter Lillies for them. Then there would be no need for murals painted on walls.

But, hate to break it you Glyn, that future is on the way... and might be here sooner than you think. And then my idea to have no war paraphernalia won't seem so crazy.

I've no wish to write off historical events Emmett, Irish history is fascinating and I love it. For the purposes of posting on this forum however I'd prefer to concentrate on the here and now because that's what matters to the living and the people who read these threads.

This idea of your that Crown Forces are "unconvicted terrorists" smacks of republican rhetoric. In the event of crisis the government has no-one else to turn to except the police and armed forces to try and maintain law and order. The simple fact is that most of them did their job well in difficult circumstances and there is no complaint about them. Some figures I heard the other day bear that out. 60% of deaths in the troubles were caused by PIRA; 10% of deaths were caused by Crown Forces, yet 90% of past and current investigations and resources have concentrated on deaths caused by Crown Forces. Most of the deaths caused by PIRA were actually Northern Ireland Catholics.

The security forces could never "kill with impunity". The rules of engagement for Northern Ireland were strict and quite a few soldiers were imprisoned for breaching them.

My conclusion as regards this is that most current investigations backed by SF are being unnecessarily pressed to gain some sort of propaganda value to enable people like you to spout the results.

I agree that bigotry is behind some Orange Order marches. I find the whole concept of Orangism to be based on bigotry and don't support it. I've said before an repeat it now that, when I was at school, flegs were flown on 18 designated days a year. I see no reason to change that and wish the loyalists would stop their protests.

As for voting. As long as we have people connected with the troubles putting themselves up for office we're going to have the partisan vote and yes, it's because some people are too stupid to realise that voting for purely political issues is more important than a vote for the DUP or Sinn Fein.

I don't need to lie to you on this forum or even in person. My belief is that integration in housing and schools is the only way forward. Only when people here start treating each other as equals in citizenship will sectarian hatred stop. This is a British country however and as an ex-serviceman I firmly believe in remembrance and war memorials and I don't think there should be any public memorials to those who broke the law for all those years: no matter whom they claimed to represent or what their ideology was. So no: no Easter Lillies. Although I see no harm in our politicians respecting republican dead by traveling to Dublin to lay wreaths of Easter Lillies.

As a compromise I would suggest that the nationalist and republican parties moot a proposal for the establishment of a memorial and memorial gardens in an appropriate place. Somewhere where relatives can pay tribute to their loved ones.

You're not breaking anything to me at all Emmett. Many changes have taken place and many more will and we will accept them all as long as they are for the betterment of our community.

Ultimately my vision would be for a settled and peaceful community where you and I could share a pint in a nice bar in any area and talk through our respective opinions on the history of our country without fear of offending anyone in earshot. Will that be in a United Ireland? For the foreseeable future, in my lifetime, I doubt that. If it were the case however I wouldn't object because I know that any settlement would include safeguards for the likes of me. I already have many friends who served in the army with me living south of the border. That's where they came from and they receive their pensions and enjoy life as British ex-servicemen in Ireland.

I hope you and other readers of this post understand my genuine and heartfelt opinions, even if some of them are futile at best. I would like to see an end to bitterness. The kind of bitterness I see in your words my friend, and it saddens me.

tara747

How did we get from Rory McIlroy to this???

GlynD

tara747 wrote: »

How did we get from Rory McIlroy to this???

Emmett decided to raise these subjects. I made the choice to reply in a dignified fashion - I hope. I suppose with so many murials being connected to paramilitaries there's no avoiding the elephant in the room.

mezza101

good to see martin wearing his poppy :money: