Why doesn't Cameron want Scottish Independence?

IveSeenTheLight

robmatic wrote: »

I thought the point was that the SNP are firmly in favour of joining the EU - it's one of their fundamental policies and in their manifesto.

Indeed it is, but from my point of view, I would not be voting for the CNP, I would be voting on independance.

Once independance is gained, the people of Scotland would be able to vote for the party that offers the best policies for the people of Scotland.

Sweden has its enhanced parental rights, including generous maternity and paternity leave; Norway its £300 billion Pension Fund from oil; and Denmark has been able to lead the world in onshore wind technology. And what do they have in common? They are all small independent states.Independence will allow us to take decisions in Scotland that will improve the lives of families, communities and individuals across our country. With independence we will have the ability to solve our own problems and to make the most of the very many opportunities open to all of us. It will allow us to build a stronger nation and a better future for us all.
What does independence mean?
Independence is about making Scotland more successful. At its most basic, it is the ability to take our own decisions, in the same way as other countries. Scotland is a society and a nation. No one cares more about Scotland's success than the people who live here and that, ultimately, is why independence is the best choice for our future.
With independence we can work together to make Scotland a more ambitious and dynamic country. We could create an environment where our existing and new private industries can grow more easily. We would have the economic levers to create new jobs and take full advantage of our second, green energy windfall. And instead of many young people having to leave Scotland to fulfil their ambitions they would be able to stay and take advantage of the increased opportunities here. We will be able to address the priorities of people in Scotland, from better state pensions to universal free childcare. Scotland could do even more to lead the world in areas like renewable energy and tackling climate change, and play our part in creating a more peaceful and stable world. Independence will allow us to make Scotland a better place to live.
A partnership of equals
And independence will mean a strong, new relationship between Scotland and the rest of the UK. It will create a partnership of equals - a social union to replace the current political union. That means, on independence day, we'll no longer have a Tory government, but the Queen will be our Head of State, the pound will be our currency and you will still be watching your favourite programmes on the BBC. As members of the EU there will be open borders, shared rights, free trade and extensive cooperation.
The big difference will be that Scotland's future will be in our own hands. Instead of only deciding some issues here in Scotland, independence will allow us to take decisions on all the major issues. That is the reality of independence in this interdependent world.

dld2s

Zekko wrote: »

It is annoying yes, so I agree it would be better if it wasn't shown in the first place, especially as the quality of the Scottish league is dire anyway!

I had forgotten you and myself were adding nothing to this thread Zekko

Tell me who you agreeing with, yourself? you quote my post, but I dont mention it "being better if not shown in the first place"

On the Scottish league being dire, this I agree to a extent, it isnt as good as it once was, lack of kids playing the game now and lack of proper grassroot plans from the SFA and clubs has led to a decline, also, unfortunately they dont have Sky TV giving billions to bring in some of the biggest chancers, sorry players in the world to play in it.

Oh and as an aside Scots have to pay for their TV license and watch adverts etc. same as other parts of the UK so are we not entitled to see the results on the TV from national news (and lets be honest, it's usually 99% about the English leagues and 1% others) or is it it only the Sky EPL that should have that privilege?

Nearly forgot to add, when the official football results are being read out on tv, I switch over or go do something else, like you I find the football results service a bit boring, only difference is that includes the English leagues, maybe they should keep us both happy and drop the results service from the national news and only have them on the regional news, problem sorted

FTBFun

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

Indeed it is, but from my point of view, I would not be voting for the CNP, I would be voting on independance.

Once independance is gained, the people of Scotland would be able to vote for the party that offers the best policies for the people of Scotland.

That large paragraph is a load of vague rubbish.

A partnership of equals? What, one a brand new country of 4 million people and one a much older one of 56 million, which even without North Sea oil revenues would still have by far the stronger economy? Good lord.

zagubov

FTBFun wrote: »

That large paragraph is a load of vague rubbish.

A partnership of equals? What, one a brand new country of 4 million people and one a much older one of 56 million, which even without North Sea oil revenues would still have by far the stronger economy? Good lord.

Well Serbia and Montenegro managed it for years and the difference in size of countries was 15:1.
When Belgium and Luxembourg had a currency and banking union, sharing a central bank, the ratio of the two countries was about 30:1.:D

chewmylegoff

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I'm still at a loss why it matters so much ( Scotland/EU) to posters here and the media. Not when there are so many screeching about UK referendums to 'get us out of the EU' ad fintitum. Cameron hinting every so often he'll give one to appease them.

Then suddenly for Scotland it's 'yes but if Scotland goes independent it won't get into the EU' * engage smug mode * ? England wants out doesn't it ? Or so most of the papers and half the Tory party say.. And one political party is rivalling the Lib Dems poll-wise solely on the policy of getting the UK OUT of it.

So it's good to gloat about Scotland not possibly being admitted to the EU.. but England has a fair proportion, and that even includes many of the current party in power.. that want out.. Desperate for a referendum too ( which incidentally, they NEVER say that the rest of the EU should 'also have a say on' like they do with the Scottish one !!!).

It doesn't make sense to me.

i don't think the issue itself is actually matters all that much. personally i don't think it would make much difference whether an independent scotland used the £ or the € (although it seems to me that some of the electorate do think it matters - perhaps because they believe this is an economic/wealth choice and not an ideological one).

as far as i am concerned, this is more about whether politicians are filthy liars or not. there is a lot of chat on the subject of independence about it being good because it would bringing government closer to home, making it more representative of the scottish people and give scotland a government which would focus more on matters which are important to the scottish people.

personally i think this just shows that the SNP are no different to any other politicians and all they want to do is get into power and once they get there, do what is right for them. i don't think they give a toss whether independence would actually be better for scottish people, hence they are prepared to just lie to people to make it more likely for people to vote for independence which in turn means that they, the SNP, will have more power should they be in government.

hence my headline view that independence won't make much of a difference to people either side of the border. to me it is just an ideological issue, and it all seems rather a pointless waste of money given the fact that the undemocratic EU is becoming progressively more influential, so the idea of "independence" is becoming rather outdated anyway.

sss555s

FTBFun wrote: »

That large paragraph is a load of vague rubbish.

A partnership of equals? What, one a brand new country of 4 million people and one a much older one of 56 million, which even without North Sea oil revenues would still have by far the stronger economy? Good lord.

But is it 16 times stronger?

I agree that the phrase you quoted is pretty rubbish but the summing up more like what it's about....

The big difference will be that Scotland's future will be in our own hands. Instead of only deciding some issues here in Scotland, independence will allow us to take decisions on all the major issues. That is the reality of independence in this interdependent world.

chewmylegoff wrote: »

i don't think the issue itself is actually matters all that much. personally i don't think it would make much difference whether an independent scotland used the £ or the € (although it seems to me that some of the electorate do think it matters - perhaps because they believe this is an economic/wealth choice and not an ideological one).

as far as i am concerned, this is more about whether politicians are filthy liars or not. there is a lot of chat on the subject of independence about it being good because it would bringing government closer to home, making it more representative of the scottish people and give scotland a government which would focus more on matters which are important to the scottish people.

personally i think this just shows that the SNP are no different to any other politicians and all they want to do is get into power and once they get there, do what is right for them. i don't think they give a toss whether independence would actually be better for scottish people, hence they are prepared to just lie to people to make it more likely for people to vote for independence which in turn means that they, the SNP, will have more power should they be in government.

hence my headline view that independence won't make much of a difference to people either side of the border. to me it is just an ideological issue, and it all seems rather a pointless waste of money given the fact that the undemocratic EU is becoming progressively more influential, so the idea of "independence" is becoming rather outdated anyway.

Politicians are politicians where ever they are from. All we can all do is try and pick the best ones we can. And that first election after independence would be an exciting time in Scotland, if it were to happen.

The thing about your view on it chewy is you obviously haven't lived the last 30 years as a Scot or a working adult in Scotland.

If you had then you would see things a bit different.

I think Scotland and the UK would both want free trading, whatever some on here may say.

zagubov

chewmylegoff wrote: »

as far as i am concerned, this is more about whether politicians are filthy liars or not. there is a lot of chat on the subject of independence about it being good because it would bringing government closer to home, making it more representative of the scottish people and give scotland a government which would focus more on matters which are important to the scottish people.

personally i think this just shows that the SNP are no different to any other politicians and all they want to do is get into power and once they get there, do what is right for them. i don't think they give a toss whether independence would actually be better for scottish people, hence they are prepared to just lie to people to make it more likely for people to vote for independence which in turn means that they, the SNP, will have more power should they be in government.

hence my headline view that independence won't make much of a difference to people either side of the border. to me it is just an ideological issue, and it all seems rather a pointless waste of money given the fact that the undemocratic EU is becoming progressively more influential, so the idea of "independence" is becoming rather outdated anyway.

The puzzling bit the unionists don't address is why are the SNP pushing for an apparently unpopular policy like independence at all when recent polls confirm they could clearly keep getting elected in repeatedly as a devolved government - whereas in an independenct country they're likely to split and eventually evolve into one or more new parties. They're getting more not less popular because frankly they're a better government.

Generali

zagubov wrote: »

Seems ridiculous that anyone believes a relatively dry waterless country that gets half its fish from Scotland's going to block its entry into a trade bloc.

Do you mean France, Spain or Italy?

I can't think of a single reason for England to want to prevent Scotland from joining the EU apart perhaps from vindictiveness if the argument over separation became nasty.

I can think of at least one reason each (Corsica, Basque region and The Northern League) for those other three countries to want to prevent Scotland from joining the EU, UN and any other international body. It's in their interests to show that a secessionist state gets a bad deal.

zagubov

Generali wrote: »

Do you mean France, Spain or Italy?

I can't think of a single reason for England to want to prevent Scotland from joining the EU apart perhaps from vindictiveness if the argument over separation became nasty.

I can think of at least one reason each (Corsica, Basque region and The Northern League) for those other three countries to want to prevent Scotland from joining the EU, UN and any other international body. It's in their interests to show that a secessionist state gets a bad deal.

But their anti-secessionist instincts aren't s strong as their food security instincts which works in Scotland's favour vis a vis Spain.

I noptice unionists always skip over the looming secession scenario in Belgium where departing Flanders would leave Brussels stranded outside the EU. It pretty much gurantees the EU has a fast-track secessionist membership protocol already thought out.

Unless they're a complete bunch of blithering idiots in which case can I remind everryone of EFTA instead>

Generali

zagubov wrote: »

But their anti-secessionist instincts aren't s strong as their food security instincts which works in Scotland's favour vis a vis Spain.

The Spanish (and other) fishermen own the rights to fish in Scottish waters having bought the rights. Scotland would not be able to take back those rights under EU law. I guess they could send the military in to enforce what they see as their rights but I wouldn't fancy their chances against the Spanish.

zagubov wrote: »

I noptice unionists always skip over the looming secession scenario in Belgium where departing Flanders would leave Brussels stranded outside the EU. It pretty much gurantees the EU has a fast-track secessionist membership protocol already thought out.

Well to be fair, the situation in Belgium isn't so much one of secession as one of disintegration: it's not that the Flemish want to leave the Walloons or vice versa so much as they hate each other and both want out.

The interesting bit about Belgium is that Brussels is a Walloon city in Flanders. AIUI the biggest problem with breaking up the country is how to deal with Brussels.

In all honesty, I don't care in the slightest what happens to Scotland. I'll probably visit it once again in my life to see the beautiful bits that I never got around to seeing when I lived in England. I used to want to see an Old Firm game but having looked at what happens regarding spousal abuse, street crime etc I wouldn't ever want to be a part of that.

I do however enjoy watching this crazy world that Nationalists live in where Scotland is going to have the 'right' to call itself the UK or to have all the oil or tell the EU what to do. There's a tiny bit of me that wants Scotland to get independence so they can see what a clusterf it will rapidly become as the Nationalist 'demands' are turned down.

Mostly I think it would be a shame for Scotland to leave the UK as Scots have done huge amounts for the UK and being in the UK has enabled amazing Scots to do amazing things, The chances of Scotland leaving are remote anyway because, thankfully, most Scots aren't dumb enough to vote for independence.